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FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
By Andy Smith
The New Age Movement has sparked new interest in Native American traditional spirituality among white women who claim to be feminists. Indian
spirituality, with it's respect for nature and the interconnectedness of all
things, is often presented as the panacea for all individual and global
problems. Not surprisingly, many white "feminists" see the opportunity to
make a great profit from this craze. They sell sweat lodges or sacred pipe
ceremonies, which promise to bring individual and global healing. Or they
sell books and records that supposedly describe Indian traditional practices
so that you, too, can be Indian.
On the surface, it may appear that this new craze is based on a respect for
Indian spirituality. In fact, the New Age movement is part of a very old
story of white racism and genocide against the Indian people. The "Indian"
ways that these white, New Age feminists are practicing have little
grounding in Native American reality.
True spiritual leaders do not make a profit from their teachings, whether
it's through selling books, workshops, sweat lodges, or otherwise. Spiritual
leaders teach the people because it is their responsibility to pass what
they have learned from their elders to the younger generation. They do not
charge for their services.
Indian religions are community-based, not proselytizing, religions. There is
not one Indian religion, as many New Ager's would have you believe. Indian
spiritual practices reflect the needs of a particular community. Indians do
not generally believe that their way is "the" way, and consequently, they
have no desire to tell outsiders about their practices. A medicine woman
would be more likely to advise a white woman to look into her own culture and find what is liberating in it.
However, white women seem determined NOT to look into their own cultures for sources of strength. This is puzzling, since pre-Christian European cultures
are also earth-based and contain many of the same elements that white are
ostensibly looking for in Native American cultures. This phenomenon leads me
to suspect that there is a more insidious motive for white "feminists"
latching onto Indian spirituality.
When white "feminists" see how white people have historically oppressed
others and how they are coming to very close to destroying the earth, they
often want to dissociate themselves from their whiteness. They do this by
opting to "become Indian." In this way, they can escape responsibility and
accountability for white racism.
Of course, white "feminists" want to become only partly Indian. They do not
want to be part of our struggles for survival against genocide; they do not
want to fight for treaty rights or an end to substance abuse or
sterilization abuse. They do not want to do anything that would tarnish
their romanticized notions of what it means to become an Indian.
Moreover, white women want to become Indian without holding themselves
accountable to Indian communities. If they did, they would have to listen to
Indians telling them to stop carrying around sacred pipes, stop doing their
own sweat lodges, and stop appropriating our spiritual practices. Rather,
these New Agers see Indians as romanticized gurus who exist only to meet
their consumerist needs. Consequently, they do not understand Indian people
or our struggles for survival, and thus they can have no genuine
understanding of Indian spiritual practices.
While New Agers may think that they are escaping white racism by becoming
"Indian," they are, in fact, continuing the same genocidal practices of
their forefathers/foremothers. The one thing that has maintained the
survival of Indian people through 500 hundred years colonialism has been the
spiritual bonds that keep us together. When the colonizers saw the strength
of our spirituality, they tried to destroy Indian religions by making
illegal. They forced Indian children into white missionary schools and cut
their tongues if they spoke their native languages. Sundances were made
illegal and Indian participation in the Ghost Dance precipitated the Wounded
Knee massacre. Our colonizers recognized that it was our spirituality that
maintained our spirit of resistance and sense of community. Even today,
Indians are the only people in the United States who do not have religious
freedom. This was made clear when the Supreme Court recently ruled that the
First Amendment does not guarantee our right to use peyote in sacred
ceremonies.
Many white, New Age "feminists" are continuing this practice of destroying
spirituality. They trivialize Native American practices so that these
practices lose their spiritual power. They have the white privileges and
power to make themselves heard at the expense of Native Americans. Consumers like what many of these white writers have to tell them and do not want to become concerned with the facts presented by Native Americans. Our voices are silenced, and consequently, the younger generation of Indians who are trying to find their way back to the Old Ways become hopelessly lost in this
morass of consumerist spirituality.
These practices also promote the subordination of Indian women to white
women. Many white "feminists" tell us how greedy we are when we don't share our spirituality, and that we have to tell them everything they want to know because prophesies say we must. Apparently, it is our burden to service
white women's needs rather than to spend time organizing within our own
communities.
The New Age movement completely trivializes the oppression that we, as
Indian women face: that Indian women are forcibly sterilized and are tested
with unsafe drugs such as Depo-Provera; that we have a life expectancy of
forty seven years; that we generally live below poverty level and face a
seventy-five percent unemployment rate. No, ignoring our realities, the New
Age movement sees Indian women as cool and spiritual and therefore,
available to teach white women to be cool and spiritual.
This trivialization of our oppression is compounded by the fact that,
nowadays, anyone can be Indian if she wants to be. All that is required is
that a white woman be Indian in a former life or that she take part in a
sweat lodge or be mentored by a "medicine woman" or read a "how to" book.
Since, according to this theory, anyone can now be "Indian," the term
"Indian" no longer refers only to those groups of people who have survived
five hundred years of colonization and genocide. This phenomenon furthers
the goal of white supremists to abrogate treaty rights and to take away what
little we have left by promoting the idea that some Indians need to have
their land base protected, but even more Indians [those that are really
white] have plenty of land. According to this logic, "Indians" as a whole do
not need treaty rights. When everyone becomes "Indian" it is easy to lose
sight of the specificity of oppression faced by those who are Indian in this
life. It is no wonder we have such a difficult time getting non-Indians to
support our struggles when the New Age movement has completely disguised our oppression.
The most disturbing aspect of these racist practices is that they are
promoted in the name of feminism. Sometimes it seems that I can't open a
feminist periodical without seeing ads with little medicine wheel designs
promoting white "feminist" businesses. I can't seem to go to a feminist
conference without the only Indian presenter being the woman who begins the
conference with a ceremony. Participants feel so "spiritual" after this
opening that they fail to notice the absence of Indian women in the rest of
the conference or that nobody is discussing any pressing issues in Native
American communities. And I certainly can't go to a feminist bookstore
without seeing books by white women promoting Native spirituality. It seems
that, while feminism is supposed to signify the empowerment of all women, it
obviously does not include Indian women. If white feminists are going to act
in solidarity with their Indian sisters, they are gong to have to take a
stand against Indian spiritual abuse.
Feminist book and record stores selling these products, and feminist
periodicals should stop advertising these products. Women who call
themselves feminists should denounce exploitative practices where ever they
see them.
Many white feminists have claimed that Indians are not respecting "freedom
of speech" by demanding that whites stop promoting and selling books that
exploit Indian spirituality. However, promotion of this material is
destroying freedom of speech for Native Americans by ensuring that our
voices will never be heard. Furthermore, feminists already make choices
about what they will promote. I haven't seen many books by right-wing
fundamentalist women sold in feminist bookstores, since feminists recognized
that these books are oppressive to women. It is not a radical move to ask
that white women extend their feminist concerns to include Indian women. The
issue is not censorship; the issue is racism. Feminists must have a choice,
will they respect Indian political and spiritual autonomy or will they
promote materials that are fundamentally racist under the guise of "freedom
of speech."
White feminists should know that as long as they take part in Indian
spiritual abuse, either by being consumers of it or by refusing to take a
stand on it, Indian women will consider white "feminists" to be nothing more
than agents in the genocide of our people.
Our spirituality is not for sale!
By Andy Smith
The New Age Movement has sparked new interest in Native American traditional spirituality among white women who claim to be feminists. Indian
spirituality, with it's respect for nature and the interconnectedness of all
things, is often presented as the panacea for all individual and global
problems. Not surprisingly, many white "feminists" see the opportunity to
make a great profit from this craze. They sell sweat lodges or sacred pipe
ceremonies, which promise to bring individual and global healing. Or they
sell books and records that supposedly describe Indian traditional practices
so that you, too, can be Indian.
On the surface, it may appear that this new craze is based on a respect for
Indian spirituality. In fact, the New Age movement is part of a very old
story of white racism and genocide against the Indian people. The "Indian"
ways that these white, New Age feminists are practicing have little
grounding in Native American reality.
True spiritual leaders do not make a profit from their teachings, whether
it's through selling books, workshops, sweat lodges, or otherwise. Spiritual
leaders teach the people because it is their responsibility to pass what
they have learned from their elders to the younger generation. They do not
charge for their services.
Indian religions are community-based, not proselytizing, religions. There is
not one Indian religion, as many New Ager's would have you believe. Indian
spiritual practices reflect the needs of a particular community. Indians do
not generally believe that their way is "the" way, and consequently, they
have no desire to tell outsiders about their practices. A medicine woman
would be more likely to advise a white woman to look into her own culture and find what is liberating in it.
However, white women seem determined NOT to look into their own cultures for sources of strength. This is puzzling, since pre-Christian European cultures
are also earth-based and contain many of the same elements that white are
ostensibly looking for in Native American cultures. This phenomenon leads me
to suspect that there is a more insidious motive for white "feminists"
latching onto Indian spirituality.
When white "feminists" see how white people have historically oppressed
others and how they are coming to very close to destroying the earth, they
often want to dissociate themselves from their whiteness. They do this by
opting to "become Indian." In this way, they can escape responsibility and
accountability for white racism.
Of course, white "feminists" want to become only partly Indian. They do not
want to be part of our struggles for survival against genocide; they do not
want to fight for treaty rights or an end to substance abuse or
sterilization abuse. They do not want to do anything that would tarnish
their romanticized notions of what it means to become an Indian.
Moreover, white women want to become Indian without holding themselves
accountable to Indian communities. If they did, they would have to listen to
Indians telling them to stop carrying around sacred pipes, stop doing their
own sweat lodges, and stop appropriating our spiritual practices. Rather,
these New Agers see Indians as romanticized gurus who exist only to meet
their consumerist needs. Consequently, they do not understand Indian people
or our struggles for survival, and thus they can have no genuine
understanding of Indian spiritual practices.
While New Agers may think that they are escaping white racism by becoming
"Indian," they are, in fact, continuing the same genocidal practices of
their forefathers/foremothers. The one thing that has maintained the
survival of Indian people through 500 hundred years colonialism has been the
spiritual bonds that keep us together. When the colonizers saw the strength
of our spirituality, they tried to destroy Indian religions by making
illegal. They forced Indian children into white missionary schools and cut
their tongues if they spoke their native languages. Sundances were made
illegal and Indian participation in the Ghost Dance precipitated the Wounded
Knee massacre. Our colonizers recognized that it was our spirituality that
maintained our spirit of resistance and sense of community. Even today,
Indians are the only people in the United States who do not have religious
freedom. This was made clear when the Supreme Court recently ruled that the
First Amendment does not guarantee our right to use peyote in sacred
ceremonies.
Many white, New Age "feminists" are continuing this practice of destroying
spirituality. They trivialize Native American practices so that these
practices lose their spiritual power. They have the white privileges and
power to make themselves heard at the expense of Native Americans. Consumers like what many of these white writers have to tell them and do not want to become concerned with the facts presented by Native Americans. Our voices are silenced, and consequently, the younger generation of Indians who are trying to find their way back to the Old Ways become hopelessly lost in this
morass of consumerist spirituality.
These practices also promote the subordination of Indian women to white
women. Many white "feminists" tell us how greedy we are when we don't share our spirituality, and that we have to tell them everything they want to know because prophesies say we must. Apparently, it is our burden to service
white women's needs rather than to spend time organizing within our own
communities.
The New Age movement completely trivializes the oppression that we, as
Indian women face: that Indian women are forcibly sterilized and are tested
with unsafe drugs such as Depo-Provera; that we have a life expectancy of
forty seven years; that we generally live below poverty level and face a
seventy-five percent unemployment rate. No, ignoring our realities, the New
Age movement sees Indian women as cool and spiritual and therefore,
available to teach white women to be cool and spiritual.
This trivialization of our oppression is compounded by the fact that,
nowadays, anyone can be Indian if she wants to be. All that is required is
that a white woman be Indian in a former life or that she take part in a
sweat lodge or be mentored by a "medicine woman" or read a "how to" book.
Since, according to this theory, anyone can now be "Indian," the term
"Indian" no longer refers only to those groups of people who have survived
five hundred years of colonization and genocide. This phenomenon furthers
the goal of white supremists to abrogate treaty rights and to take away what
little we have left by promoting the idea that some Indians need to have
their land base protected, but even more Indians [those that are really
white] have plenty of land. According to this logic, "Indians" as a whole do
not need treaty rights. When everyone becomes "Indian" it is easy to lose
sight of the specificity of oppression faced by those who are Indian in this
life. It is no wonder we have such a difficult time getting non-Indians to
support our struggles when the New Age movement has completely disguised our oppression.
The most disturbing aspect of these racist practices is that they are
promoted in the name of feminism. Sometimes it seems that I can't open a
feminist periodical without seeing ads with little medicine wheel designs
promoting white "feminist" businesses. I can't seem to go to a feminist
conference without the only Indian presenter being the woman who begins the
conference with a ceremony. Participants feel so "spiritual" after this
opening that they fail to notice the absence of Indian women in the rest of
the conference or that nobody is discussing any pressing issues in Native
American communities. And I certainly can't go to a feminist bookstore
without seeing books by white women promoting Native spirituality. It seems
that, while feminism is supposed to signify the empowerment of all women, it
obviously does not include Indian women. If white feminists are going to act
in solidarity with their Indian sisters, they are gong to have to take a
stand against Indian spiritual abuse.
Feminist book and record stores selling these products, and feminist
periodicals should stop advertising these products. Women who call
themselves feminists should denounce exploitative practices where ever they
see them.
Many white feminists have claimed that Indians are not respecting "freedom
of speech" by demanding that whites stop promoting and selling books that
exploit Indian spirituality. However, promotion of this material is
destroying freedom of speech for Native Americans by ensuring that our
voices will never be heard. Furthermore, feminists already make choices
about what they will promote. I haven't seen many books by right-wing
fundamentalist women sold in feminist bookstores, since feminists recognized
that these books are oppressive to women. It is not a radical move to ask
that white women extend their feminist concerns to include Indian women. The
issue is not censorship; the issue is racism. Feminists must have a choice,
will they respect Indian political and spiritual autonomy or will they
promote materials that are fundamentally racist under the guise of "freedom
of speech."
White feminists should know that as long as they take part in Indian
spiritual abuse, either by being consumers of it or by refusing to take a
stand on it, Indian women will consider white "feminists" to be nothing more
than agents in the genocide of our people.
Our spirituality is not for sale!
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 6:54 PMDude, I see so many issues with this piece I dont even know where to start....
seriously I can see the need to point out the fact that some specific people need to be reminded of the cultural significances of their practices....but shit....
if I get a good hour Ill respond to this.
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 8:35 PMOk, I don't know what set you off specifically against "white feminist women" but you are way off base. What is this misogynist attitude of yours? Or are you just homophobic and afraid of lesbians? Maybe it's ok with you if it's a white brother. I would respect your arguement if you were upset with all non-native american new agers of both genders who steal Native American sweat lodges or sacred pipe ceremonies, or any other part of "indian culture" and sell them for a profit. And believe me there are just as many, if not more, new age men making big profits off of "shamanic workshops" that steal specificly Lakota rituals.
As a feminist lesbian pagan who can pass for white, your little rant offends me personally. The feminist community that I know does it's very best to respect and come to a greater understanding of all people and thier cultural differences. IME the feminist community does a much better job of confronting the issue of white privilege than the New Age community. Do we always succeed, no. But at least we are aware that it's a problem to be delt with.
I'm so dissapointed. when I read the title to this thread I thought you might have something intelegent to say.
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 10:03 PMREAD THE BY LINE ..this is by A Smith and I posted it here just for a topic ..and by the by no I LOVE LESBIANS in all forms .....SO "B" ....this is not directed to you or woman ...so my sister from a nother mother chill and lets do what we came here for and talk about ...what is going on .... -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 6:37 AMThen why do you post this crap? Even though it was written by someone else, I can only assume that you agree with what it says because you posted it.
"....this is not directed to you or woman ..."
Did you not read it before you posted it? It is an outright attack on "white feminist women"! That would be me, and other women.
Stop making flame-wars! I would love to have an intelegent discussion with you about "what is going on"! Cultural appropriation is a huge problem. It makes me angry too! There are constructive ways of creating a dialogue about even the most difficult subjects, beginning with treating everyone with respect, and a certain openness to exchanging ideas. Isn't that how you would like to be treated too?
In the future, please, speak with your own words from your own heart! We want to hear what YOU have to say!
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 10:26 PMExodus:
I have written several long posts on various other threads, in part about anger and anger management. I have posited the thought that in a tribe about Shamanism it may not be the most appropriate place for us to spew our hardened feeings towards each other. I have tried to suggest we may do better, at least in this particular tribe, to learn a more nurturing way with each other.
Because of my posted beliefs on this subject, my first reaction to your thread was to ignore it. What you wrote about just isn't my concern. I thought to leave any comment to others, ....if they must.
But I've thought about it more, and decided it might be worth noting something you wrote. ...Actually, not so much what you wrote, but how you wrote it. -- I noticed you used a number of stereotypes. Do you really mean to say that all "indian" women think the same way about white fem. women ? Do you really believe that white feminists are racists or abusers ? Is the new age movement really genocidal ?
I mean, sure, there are people of any belief system who do nasty stuff, but your post seems to imply that most indian women and white women and the new agers have one primary point of view. Is there really that little variety of thought and action among so many people ?
You know, Exodus, I have several times in this tribe thought that it would be much more interesting to me if the posters here would post their own thoughts. Why bother just copying what someone else said ? What do you really think, in your own words ?
Andy Smith, who you list as author of all these stereotypes, doesn't appear to be a very happy person. But I wouldn't know, I can't ask him. But I can ask you.
Why would you post such stuff here on Shamanism ? Are you just trying to elicite anger ? Or division ? Do you really believe in such stereotypes ? Have you somehow confused the "shaman tribe" with the "angry young men tribe ?" You seem like a worthwhile person, much dedicated to your beliefs. Have you considered presenting Andy Smith's words to the "feminist tribe", where they are sure to spark a good bit of comment ? And most importantly, (Since we all would like to be healers here and want to be helpful.), have you had a good enema lately ?
- Jim
P.S. Please, "can't we all just get along ?" Can't we try writing our own thoughts, telling our own stories? Can't we try to get over all this separation stuff ? Let's try leaving stereotypes behind, and try for real understanding instead.
.......Oh, and by the way, I Was an Indian in a past life. A psychic told me I was Ghandi's girlfriend. -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:44 AMnicely put jim, i would also say to exudus that when we encounter negativity maybe best not to propagate it, i mean it can be interesting like talking about the planned demolishing of the world trade center. but finally we just gotta integrate what we know and stay up beat i guess
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 4:19 AM"While New Agers may think that they are escaping white racism by becoming
"Indian," they are, in fact, continuing the same genocidal practices of
their forefathers/foremothers..."
I am rootless and disconnected and it doesn't feel good but I've never been an indian except in my own head as a kiddy because I was in no way a cowboy... hahaha
some people are ashamed of their roots and some try to romanticise them...
cultural usurping is an insidious process full of paradoxes because history is complex and just about everybody is trained up to be racist and that doesn't need to matter too much IF you can get what you need from life...
the general PC reaction to this stuff is a kind of awkward benign denial which may indeed be the best way of dealing...
nevertheless the anger from this "political" stuff can rise contributing to other personal and social woes along life's path...
is the club med style rehashing of "shamanic" fancy dress parties just the inevitable process of recycling culture into neatly packaged theme park events that can be added to the menu in the disneyland empire...?
a lot of euro-centric theoretical rhetoric has gone into these simulacre themes...
isn't the happy shaman shopper thing kind of a positive pot and veggie development offering alternatives to the relentless violence of industrial booze and burger warmongering...?
has anybody had personal insights or grand prophesies from spirit on these issues of man's corruption and inhumanity to man and nature...?
does anybody perhaps specialise in healing for those of us deeply affected by alienation and anger...?
youtube.com/watch -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 5:22 AMhas anybody had personal insights or grand prophesies from spirit on these issues of man's corruption and inhumanity to man and nature...?
well funny that you asked an insight i had about that was that it is all based on a profound ignorance of what we really are and that the balm of education in all of its forms should be applied liberally to the affected area! we are light bengs, we are not a whole lot of different races and cultures , we are human conciousness -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 5:40 AMwhat education...?
how is one to access this superior education...?
how does an educated light being transform established prejudices...?
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 6:01 AMi guess through sharing info, art, music, baseball bats, uhh not baseball bats -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 6:42 AMi guess i want to not sound blithe about what exodus is going on about here, or what he is showing, but usurping cultures as mentioned by another is just gonna happen and hopefully the big mix will make us all better in the end, doncha tink? -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:45 AMNow you all see ....some time you must look at the person you are and thin look around you.....to see just were you stand as a human. I have read the posting by others here .....with a smil on my face for this is what I was seeking, a conversation that would bring out all the feelings and questions........ -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:25 PMReading this and other threads on the subject has made me ponder...
I'm not suggesting anyone else needs to or should feel this way. I'm sharing another possible perspective is all.
PERHAPS a more peaceful, and in some ways more practical perspective. FEEL FREE TO THINK NOT!
If I imagine one of my spiritual practises being copied by someone else, and them selling it, I figure well even if only the very most superficial of ideas about reverence for other than human beings and the planet is spread by their doing this, well, I think at least that's something. Please just bear with me for a tick!
They won't have 'taken' anything from me, not the way I feel about it. They can't 'take' my spirituality from me by copying one or more of my practises. They are sharing in it to their own limited degree. Even if their intent was to steal. Even if they were to make money out of it. I don't really care, because anything that gets, as I said, the most superficial of messages about caring and reverence out there, which my pracitses are basically about......well, a lotta people need all the opportunities possible to even get a glimpse of something beyond their own limited and often damaging vision.
Yeah, yeah I know......but
Children do learn something about caring for a baby by playing with dolls. Something about everything really, by playing make believe. Those who are 'taking' Native American ways, are hopefully doing something similar.
I don't mean this in a patronising way. Just that many adults, I've seen, are as children when it comes to any kind of concept even, of anything beyond materialism. Children can be sneaky, conniving, and underhanded until hopefully they learn better. Some don't.
Please don't jump all over me. I'm just free thinking about the thing, rather than taking sides. I'm trying to find what's useful, in an overall sense, about this sort of thing.
Please don't think I don't feel for the Native American people. I feel for all who are treated anywhere from disrespectfully at one end of the scale, to despicably at the other end.
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 12:16 AMFinally a non-grasping viewpoint.
"If I imagine one of my spiritual practises being copied by someone else, and them selling it, I figure well even if only the very most superficial of ideas about reverence for other than human beings and the planet is spread by their doing this, well, I think at least that's something. Please just bear with me for a tick! "
This is kind of where my meditation took me when I pondered copyrighting my articles (some years ago). If what I wrote, out of Spirit and as a teaching was 'stolen', so what? SO WHAT!? TheTruth of Spirit comes to everyone.
My personal feeling is that the people who complain (Or did complain in the 70's and 80's, when I think this article was written) [Oh, by the way did you pay royalties to reprint this rant?] are people who are NOT Medicine People, not shaman, not reallyy in a erimonial position. These complaints come from "tribal members" who feel disenfranchised by their own tribe. That is MY observation. I have never hear a recognized Medicine Person speak in such a hateful way. Perhaps some "War Cheif", but never a healer.
Oh, and if you wanted, original poster, to have a conversation about this concept, why didn't you preface this hate speech, or ask a question at the end?
((maybe I was YOU in a Past Life?)) -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:27 AM"TheTruth of Spirit comes to everyone. "
what truth...?
what spirit...?
what everyone...?
"Oh, and if you wanted, original poster, to have a conversation about this concept, why didn't you preface this hate speech, or ask a question at the end?"
posting a cited article in an online forum implies the wish to discuss and not prefacing or questioning simply implies not wishing to apply those formula or present an a priori personal POV - and there is no strict protocol imposed so far as I am aware...
I didn't like the article and I am neither american or native american but it has certainly generated some reaction over what I feel is important socio-eco and cultural "inconsistencies" that are by no means exclusive to new age or shamanism etc...
the big irksome aspect of this post is that it raises the self conscious issues of credibility and lineage and injustice which were also raised in other threads touching on money and qualifications etc...
from one POV it is great that alternative therapies and lifestyles exist as creative outlets and in easing suffering and of course they should be encouraged and developed etc...
I guess the shadow side of this is the idea that the evil empire spreads devouring everything in it's path both politically and spiritually whilst regurgitating simulacre in a process kind of like replacing wild chickens with battery farmed etc...
like playing matrix backwards maybe... hahaha
euro academics have traded off this theme park idea a lot with vegas and disney analogies but in a global economy this should be increasingly manifest by points of sales decor and the continued mediation and popularisation inevitably adds to the paradox etc...
and then of course what about the disenfranchised...?
does spirit reject them as much as the tribe and the socio-eco etc...?
"There are those who worship loneliness, I'm not one of them,
In this age of fibreglass I'm searching for a gem."
Bob Dylan, "Dirge", 1973
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, February 5, 2008 - 10:22 PMThank you, Jazmin, for your wise words. They have helped me to see a blockage in my thinking and a negative emotional cycle that I had going about/for a wonderful woman. I don't post here often (actually, never have) an don't really have time to read through *all* of the posts that this community collects, but I was able to read this and I am thankful.
Thank you.
Blessings & Light,
~Kiara~ -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, February 5, 2008 - 10:41 PMKiara,
I appreciate you letting me know you were able to make use of what I shared. Thank you. :D
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:51 AMlets play cowgirls and indian boys!
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:39 AMok, i do not have the right to be offended. it's like when i was a white kid living in a black neighborhood. at the corner store, when everyone else even those behind me get to go ahead of me to pay, i realized at that moment that i was blessed with a taste as a white girl of what most blacks in our society have to experience their entire lives. when you are white you live in a world made for you without ever knowing from real actual experience what all the non whites go through. and no matter how much you grasp it intellectually, how many books you read, how many people you hear from, you will never truly understand, why? because you are WHITE.
i say, wear it. when you read angry about whites from any non white, bow your head and maybe think blessings for that angry one.
feel some shame and regret for god's sake!
yeah you did not personally decimate the indians. but YOUR PEOPLE DID AND CONTINUE TO DO SO! and your lifestyle, your ideas, your upbringing, indoctrination, love of comfort, sense of privilege perpetuates all this. look, if your belly is full, then you are taken care of by this society, most folks on the res are not taken care of. often go hungry and are treated cooly with this real tangible underlying racism in town by the white folks when and if they go for supplies.
can't we go for our own spiritual practices? do we have to take everything from these people? if you are walking around on united states land, guess what, you have what you need. you don't need the pipe and the sweat and the sacred practice as well if it has not been freely given.
if you are not directly referred to in this article you certainly don't have anything to be offended about. and if you ARE a white woman who has made money off of elements of indian sacred practices, shame on you
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:13 PMYou go on and keep your shame and regret embrace....if that's how you choose to live your life then by all means do so.
Me, I am proud as hell about my ancestors and how they faced life. Yeah, they may have done a lot of fucked up things. Or maybe none. I know they weren't slave owners or in the cavalry. But yeah, they probably perpetuated a lot of negative things. But you know what, they did the best they could in the circumstances they were given. They busted their asses working so that I could be here today. They fought, and struggled, and dealt with all sorts of crazy shit.
It's not like Indians never did anything fucked up you know. As if we as white people have to shoulder the blame for the ills of the world. I think not! Humans are fucked up when they're not being beautiful, Indian, White, Black, Asian, makes no difference.
Did you know the Blackfeet used to cut off the noses of women who cheated on their husbands? Did you know that they were also probably the most feared and blood-thirsty warriors of the high plains? Did you know that Africans practiced a lot of slavery long before Europeans ever got there? And that when Europeans created the huge slave trade, that it was black Africans that sold the slaves to them? Did you know that the Japanese would physically destroy a woman who so much as talked at the wrong time? And that they used to go around killing each other, and stealing each others lands and burning homes in the hopes of becoming the Shogun?
We can focus on all the negative shit that people have done very easily, but I for one WILL NOT be ashamed or feel a shred of regret for the actions of my ancestors. On the contrary, I bow before their sacred presence, and honor them and thank them for doing what they had to do to get me here.
My guess is your ancestors would be ashamed of you to hear you say these things about them embrace..... -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:14 PMAnd did you really say "for god's sake"?....sigh, what a poor choice of words..... -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:21 PMfor gods sake be nice to each other please.........we are all nice people here i do believe -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 4:44 PMfor gods sake be nice to each other please.........we are all nice people here i do believe
how darling you are!
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:20 PMgee will you ever forgive me?
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:22 PM"And did you really say "for god's sake"?....sigh, what a poor choice of words....."
gee will you ever forgive me?
(lol it's like a hiccup when that happens)
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 4:43 PM"You go on and keep your shame and regret embrace....if that's how you choose to live your life then by all means do so. Me, I am proud as hell about my ancestors."
okay, kuy jiv, thanks for your go ahead with that. you go on now and do right by all that proud white indignation! lol
i hear ya loud and clear about all the inherent strength, endurance and heart the early white settlers had, no doubting or disputing that. my mother's family were farmers. here's the house my mother and siblings grew up in. poor as can be and working sun up to sun down on the farm.
www.flickr.com/photos/tillyblye/107613/
yes fucked up people come in every breed no doubt about that! lol
you know, funny thing about your response, it's beginning to look more and more like something one of my south dakota cousins would send me! yikes! i think my conscience is calling, gotta go ...
but wait, but before i go, i have to say, you've got a lot of nerve, white boy -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:51 PMWell, I shouldn't have come out swinging at you embrace, it was a spur of the moment reaction and for that I apologize, though I still don't relate to the sentiment of feeling shame or guilt for the actions of our ancestors, but that's a topic we can talk about peacefully and honorably. Hope you're well,
kj -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 7:51 AMheck, come out swinging anytime if you are moved to. doesn't bother me personally. and i will engage in this discussion with you anytime, thanks, say where and when and i will show up.
all the best to you, angry white man
lol
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:29 PMI was an Indian once. It was a very long time ago and it was, uh, in India. I do not recall a past life where I was a Native American.
We are all descended from native peoples at some point. As a planet we must find a way to honor and learn from the past.
Breathing, listening, learning,
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 4:46 PMAs a planet we must find a way to honor and learn from the past.
how very astute! very nicely stated
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 5:18 PMAh yes my friend (shaking head from side to side). I remember you well. We used to smoke chillums and play music together under the mango tree while admiring the cow girls dancing in the pastures. -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:52 AMlets play cowpeople and indian people -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 4:24 AMyeah but then it is back to who gets to play... hahaha
I'd like to get to play with some indian girls and cowgirls and great spirit powers and get a life and a healthy retirement plan at a luxury seaside spa but I ain't got that stuff and so I would like spirit to show me how to get it or show me I am ok without getting it or something... hahaha
at a new age event this lady told me in a past life I was a powerful man with lots of people and responsibilities so I guess that is why in this life I am a marginalised bum with my head up my ass - so it would seem that I need a spirit guide to help me not to make such broad swings in my reincarnations... hahaha
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:09 PMokay guys. Listen to all of you. breaking off into warring tribes and yelling racism, feminism, blackism, whitism, greenism. That is exactly what has gotten this world into such a fucking mess. Im an Indian, we are all of indigenous tribes from somewhere right. So loosley we are all "indians".
When we have stopped seeing color or sexual preference, politics, religion (all of it) as something to raise a fist over than we can truly be one great tribe.
Im stepping off the old boat of a "new world order"folks, cause its a sinking fast. My new world will be filled with love where I will point fingers less and finger paint more! Follow me, I don't think we'll be alone!! -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:18 PMUh, I think that was my point. We can run off the cliff with all the sheep screaming me-mes shouting ME! ME!. My way, my money, my this, my that, ...or,...
We could support each other, nourish each, and cherish the powerful and individual joys and experiences and in doing that each of us walks their own way, but we all get home in one piece.
Ok, break out he mead, ale, and other goodies,
(oh, and save me some yogurt)
rw- -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 5:31 AMthe only thing that matters is peoples actions not what strain of blood is running through their veins, this whole concept is out of date and only contibuting to THE problem folks....i dont care what the dickens your skin color is we all suffer equally in our own ways and that for christs sake should be enough to make us forget the rest.....we is all of us in this together around here. not to say there are not differences between races..obviosly. we must stop protecting racial boundries with our thoughts. "am i doing good or am i not helping as a person",,, "not am i good upholder of my indian/germanic/latin traditions".....traditions should not be used to draw lines between people the true wisdom that underlies a tradition should bring people together otherwise it should be trashed and stomped out of existance forever a- bloody-men
namaste hey hey hey yo -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 5:32 AMoh exodus this was a great idea for a thread it weaves in nicely
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 7:48 AMi agree shel, but i believe the way out is through. i advocate feeling some regret and shame as a releasing technique. i was taught by the tibetans, what one of us does we all do.
i may not personally have done the indians wrong here but i have participated in the ignorance.
what one of us does we all do. we are all one. if i cannot be sorry about the actions of white people it has not tapped my compassion and decency. not that all those who feel no sorrow or regret for the actions of whites are indecent or without compassion, lol, just misguided and a little ignorant. as am i, as are a lot of us white folks. we have been completely duped by our culture which has indoctrinated us so far from nature from spirit, that we long to get back to what is real for our spirit's sake (ha, like that better kuy jav? ). i think that is what compels us to "borrow" spiritual practices without the blessings of the people. it is our terrible indoctrination that compels us to exploit or otherwise profit from such things.
we can't get past the blood difference just yet, not until we have figured this out and gotten past by going through it.
this is a great opportunity for some major awakening, heart opening, and releasing. i get the feeling that it was set up and designed this way for us to discover the wisdom in it. -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 8:00 AMoh lets just agree to disagree sweetie pie, mua
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 5:18 AMI like your style Jeff, my world is full on creativity - as an aussie 'Indian' my way of looking at this word is that we are indigenous to the earth, as her children, we all love our mother & each other as sister & brother - isn't that ghow the song goes ??
Hey I am not even in the land of the red man & I have been skining & tanning road kill for years to make drums, rattles & animal medicine from - without someone telling me how to - so no one can say, I stole this or that from some else - its just in us - which brings me back to he title - we were all indians in a former life, this is a prophecy of the Hopi, the Aboriginal & many other indigenous peoples. That the spirits of their ancestors would return in every race & colour & shall be known as the rainbow tribe - returning respect & understanding for all of life. If the tiniest candle shines light in the darkest room - then lets throw a party & bring light into the darkness, now I understand the natives use of Pow wow - just another name for Par-Ty ! Morning Star
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 10:57 AMIt's call cultural appropriation.
You're taking it too personal. New age spiritual wannabees in their white middle age have been doing this to hindu, buddhist, taoist practices for 100's of years.
Your insistence on pointing only to white women is a bit racist and ignorant itself.
White covers a lot of racial backgrounds. So does brown. Call an East indian from Idia a Pakistani and you'll get a very strong, probably virulent reaction.
You can't stop people from making money selling new age trinkets and books that missappropriate cultural spirituality. Anymore than you can stop someone from translating an ancient text and putting their own spin on the translation.
Your picture looks pretty damn white to be so offended by the practice.
But hey, how many foolish white people believing in past lives that have some grand idea that they were a great egyptian priest or priestess actually have any egyptian blood in them either.
Or Christian booksellers that repackage the words of the killers of christ and sell them as salvation.
So white boy with the rasta hairdo talking his "hail rastafari" BS is culturally misappropriating a religion as well, should we lynch him?
What's your real point? If you are white you shouldn't be allowed to explore your spirituality? If you are indian should you be ridiculed for going to a christian church or taking tai chi?
Should only East Indians be allowed to practice the chakra system?
White people that study kundalini are spiritual usurpers?
Perhaps you should stop seeing yourself as so special and holy and connected.
Or are you "the one"?
I do agree with you on some points.
but then again, the indian people that grew up near me all had money each month, some land, guaranteed education for as long as they wanted to go to university.
I struggle in this world too. Daily. I should pity you that your great great grandfather died in the war for this continent? Why aren't you wailing for my ancestors that were killed by the inquisition.
Stop whining and be more constructive. Give positive suggestions instead of bitching that someone is making money off your spirituality. Either make money off it yourself or show people what its really about with a book.
What's next? A jewish rant in the merkabah thread about misappropriated semitist theology?
Bite me.
Sorry, but I really detest this kind of whiny crap. Go kill all the white people and make your indian paradise without anyone different than you to abscond with your beliefs. -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:35 PM -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:54 PM -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:08 PM -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 4:03 PMi love shane mcgowan, but i gotta go call my dentist. i can't watch anymore, i have to go brush my teeth. i wish i had taken better care of my teeth! -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 6:13 AMand there was me hoping that the toothless look was gonna be the new fashion... -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 4:18 PMdon't feel bad. crooked never caught on either
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 3:35 AMholy shit that was heavy! Nice one!
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 3:40 PMWhat's your view on people who are descended from European and Native American cultures in this life. Where do we fit in? I'm just curious about your opinion on that subject. -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 8:51 AMYou got me. Im one are you???
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 10:05 PMwhen I read this post, I felt angry. It felt like an unfair attack on white women feminists. It felt too general, too ignorant. Too narrow in its understanding of the bigger picture. I know I've been indian in other lives. I know I've murdered indians in other lives. What does that make me today? Today, I am a "white" woman. (I don't even know what a feminist is anymore) I was raised a in a methodist christian background but left the church at 12 cuz I saw too much hypocrisy and incongruence within the teachings. I do not follow anyone else's spiritual practices but my own. I let my heart and Spirit guide me because too many people have an agenda or a judgement about how things "should" be done. I find truth in every path, and take what my heart says is true for me, and I make it part of my life. I do not see myself as privledged, though others may. I am a single mother, have raised my son mostly on my own, and clean houses for a meager living. I'm also empathic and can feel people very deeply. I feel their pain and I ask to be of service whenever possible. So many have suffered, many continue to suffer. All kinds of people for all kinds of reasons.
It makes me sad to read this anger, to see more anger generated. I'm tired of all the fighting and arguing. It is time for something else. How about allowing, forgiving, kindness, gratitude? How about it? Can we offer that to each other? -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 16, 2007 - 6:12 AMyeah i think that everyone should realize that Zannrose, i think this thread has been for that, we have all reincarnated as everything, indians were whites and whites indians and we all pissed on each others dead mutilated bodies at one or so point in the wheel of things, of course hopefully we are not doing that anymore with our lives and are getting better all the time if i may quote a beatles song and all we need is love if i may quote another and oh i gete by with a little help from my friends if i mayquote one last one that i really like a lot, which leads me to ask if anyone saw tha PBS film called the Lathe Of Heaven which was adapted from a sci fi book, there is a key moment in that film that has Lennon singin that last song........... -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 16, 2007 - 11:33 AMYeah. Great book. Movie was good too.
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Tue, October 16, 2007 - 12:40 PMzann, yes definitely love compassion and forgiveness! but in this life you have not taken sacred practices that were not freely given and profit off them. so why be offended?
yes we have all been and done it all, or close to it. that is probably why we suffer over suffering, because we know, in our sinews, we have known it and inflicted it.
plus, this all is likely part of our healing process sometimes healing can be a bit hairy but the outcome is great.
let's not be too sensitive to our normal human emotions like anger, resentment, fear. as long as they are expressed and addressed (not acted out) a lot of healing will happen. -
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 7:53 AMoh you saw that richard? wasnt that so moving the scene when he finds the old fonograph while dreamaking reality? it says that we may have power and allies in the ether, but nothing can touch human connectivity, we are strongest when we link through love kndness and friendship errr compassion -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 10:48 PMVery. I should see it again too. It's been years.
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 8:15 PMAs a woman.... more specifically a native american.. or as i would like to be referred to as.. an anishnaabe woman... i have to say that the elders who run the ceremonies that i attend.. invite humans from all walks of life.. and celebrate when there are peopel that are not anishnaabe that are interested in feeding their spirit in the traditional way of their people.. i think that it is important to keep in mind that this essay was written in anger... and what was forgotten by the author.. is that.. it is not just the first nations women of north america that have been opressed... all women have been opressed... i understand her anger on the level that im sure all opressed women understand.. as well as on the level of the opression.. and colonization of the first nations people of north america... the difference is that i fight that colonization and opression with love and compassion... which i send to her as well because she is hurt.. and affected.. understandably.... i hope that we can all send love to this situation so that the separation between all people can stop. .and we can come together in ceremony, and love each other.. like we all deserve...
love and light
Standing Strong Red Buffalo Medicine Woman -
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Unsu...
beautiful wisdom
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 6:52 PMit is not just the first nations women of north america that have been oppressed... all women have been oppressed... i understand her anger on the level that im sure all oppressed women understand.. as well as on the level of the oppression.. and colonization of the first nations people of north america... the difference is that i fight that colonization and oppression with love and compassion... which i send to her as well because she is hurt.. and affected.. understandably.... i hope that we can all send love to this situation so that the separation between all people can stop. .and we can come together in ceremony, and love each other.. like we all deserve...
love and light
Standing Strong Red Buffalo Medicine Woman
thank you, khem! -
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Unsu...
Re: beautiful wisdom
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 8:20 PMI almost got to meet that wild eyed lady from Canada, maybe, one day I still will!
The Lady with those eyes!
We shall meet, Aimée
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 3:16 AMDo us blue eyed brother ever have a story to tell when we sit beside the fire, how do you think we feel having to be white guy on this round. A white guy becomes a rasta, they call him a rasta, a black man becomes a muslim and the call him a muslim, a white guy thinks in indian and he is called an idiot. I am still trying to figure out which is worse being an apple(red on the outside white on the onside) or a white on the outside and red on the inside.......so I say screw IT! I am a human being, go ahead and contest that....Human being that is my identity..I dont identify with any nation any more........be it Poland or Cheyenne......I am a human being thats all I know........and to make it even more interesting I am the singer and bass player in a reggae band that wries songs about Leonard Peltier.. http:/www.myspace.com/redhillmedicineband its the song called "fly again" tell me what you think?.......Blue eyes??? What? Wannabee? I passed up 4 adoptions and pissed off some elders and a bunch of people for not doing so.........reason being once again I have an identity.......Human Being. Adopted by the ancestors and sponsored by the ancestors. Check out my profile at Red Nation Society www.rednationsociety/buffalomedicine and then you can see what us white dudes are up to on attiwarorodornk territory, These people have been erased 350 years ago but I still recognize their territory. I notice the men wont step up in their roles as firekeepers be them white or be them red........ and the strange part of it all is, is that the best firekeeper of all that I know is a woman! She stepped up and lit her own fire up top of the hill from mine because the guy would not step up be them red or be them white. She was arrested a week later, the one I was taking care of burned for another 9 months. Even the brothers from the nation know that were are all in alot of deep trouble if we dont all work together and strenthen our communities........if there is no fire there is no centre, if the ere is no centre the hearts of our women are vulnerable to falling to the ground........ if we have no firekeepers we have no fire. Indian In A Former Life? Are you in this life? The Real People are Real Human Beings no matter what colour they are.......keep smiling cause the kids need them -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 8:49 PMJohn, i hear you, i hear what you're saying, and i agree! The trick of course is, how to inspire the elders (and others) to see the value of allowing you to be listened to. Now, i'd advocate DEEP listening to you and any other dissent (i.e. youthful). Because, my feeling is that such heart dissent is PIVOTALLY IMPORTANT.
This is where a very powerful bridging can occur where few have had success before.
That is, let the CHAMPIONS of dissent art their dissent; come up with regalia, dances, and bring the gifts of their culture ways to their fellow human beings oriented to, it is claimed, "the old ways". (But what are the Old Ways but champions challenging the limits of the status quo in radically artful ways??!!) And THEN meet the others in community! And perhaps add onto your consciousness!
Whattya think about all of this? Your input is needed!
Contesting is important, it is a vital physicality, a way of touching others with our hearts!
And if we find a way to keep the bridges with each other at the same time, realizing the value, then mutually beneficial outcomes (and magick!) can happen!
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 8:29 AMI have read all the posting here ....this is a greate conversation that is going on, the learning and shairing, it's a starte, some still are stuck, they stop by and voice their view from the out side.....and have yet to look with in 1st. I don't know Andy Smith the writer, but in todays country Natives are still last....as a person of the 1st Nation all I ask is that you who act like we all need a non- Indian to speek for us ......sorry but we were forced to learn you're ways to be more American, and now ...you want to teach use our ways ......I know over 12 folkes that are out there that do not know any person on a REZ, nor could they move from one REZ to another and find family. There is a person that has saide that he has spoken for the 1st Nation and yet when I look'ed into this clam it was not so.......he does not speeks for the 1st Nation.
I just want all to know "WE are Still Here ! " ~ And we can speek for our self's
Our people are strong, Our Kid's will be Stronger !
I post'ed this to see what is in the minds of others, is there a hope for respect for who we are, a knowing that we can stand on our own ~ our history is just that ours , and your's is you'res ......and when you know were you come from, thin you'll know were you are going ~ keep the conversation going ~
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 7:28 PMI read through this topically, i'll admit, yet i think i have something to offer.
i think it is crucial to note one thing that most or a lot of indigenous challengers have missed when seeking to challenge "white society" to think through its systematic appropriation and variations of other attack or demeaning of indigenous ways of being and seeing. The crucial thing that i think is missed is that challengers don't talk about the *chain of command* structure inherent throughout settler society.
Having said that, i too am a settler, of settler heritage, yet deeply inspired by indigenous ways of seeing and being. And i feel deeply that longtime colonized folks like me *can* approach indigenous ways of being and seeing and *can* experience such without appropriating and etcetera in variously sinister ways. But only in an informal, individual manner.
So the germ of truth Andy makes in discussing feminists has some truths (sounds like he lives in a rural part of the country where some truths about the most politically-known feminist community are "dragged through the coals" by "right wing" interests --such as The New American --whom have as part of their interests, the desire to put females back in a subordinate position to males) --YET it leaves out the all-important CONTEXT to why and how!
Because, like every other "rights"-oriented group in settler society (feminists being only one more amongst oodles) the reality is that these groups are organized into something like military structures themselves; that's because they are groups which have usually been organized *into* structures which petition the occupation state for "A Seat At the Table" of security and freedom. This in itself is tell-tale. Thus, one is "free" to discuss the single issue --of feminism in this case-- but not free to go deeper than that, really.
So, to take a little somewhat recent history (1980s) if a thing like the political import of showing solidarity with the Sandinista government of Daniel Ortega's Nicaragua shows up into the consciousness of New Age-type folks (via the media they read), solidarity with Miskito Indians will depend upon whether the feminists' trusted leadership deem it politically valuable or not, first and foremost. If, as happened, the Miskito people are deemed non-allies, then, suddenly, their voices are censored and empathy becomes unheard of. Why? Because the meta of every state-subordinated group is playing the game of not playing the game of politics/polytricks.
Of course, in this case, the Miskito thought it in their best interest to remain neutral, and in some cases openly retalitory where the Sandinistas were concerned --as they were painted with a broadbrush to be "Contras" working for the c.ia. Thus, they wouldn't play the meta game, and they were "out", to use a little parlance that Noam Chomsky uses from time to time (see his "Media Control" speech, published as a book now, for more examples, where he's talking about Iraq).
This example, of the Miskito and Sandinistas was actually a very real situation. And if you look at coloradoaim.org's site, they discuss this at length, and give the reader grey areas that were never tolerated in dominant feminist media. Not even Z Magazine discussed the Miskito situation thoroughly, to my knowledge. Everyone just joined in on what the orders were.
So this is an example, perhaps badly articulated, of solidarity with indigenous folks thrown right out of the window when politics gets in the way. And so you can start to see why indigenous folks see right through the superficiality of feminist New Agers, or New Agers in general (those dominated by Leftist, or even Rightist ways of Telling), or europeons all.
Because we, as a people, are largely subordinated to chain-of-command ways of thinking and being. If our trusted leaders Tell us to think in some way, we largely go along with that. We largely do NOT challenge, nor do our "alternatives" provide adequate space and time to critically appraise topics; actually, we as a mass are seen as *incapable* of such things, for whatever reason!
So what indigenous people are getting at is that we as a general population just DON'T HAVE IT IN US to be true indigenous people! Regardless of our claims, our actions prove the truth. We still remain subordinate to the polytricks (politics) which control the thought and actions of our communities, generally. And so, in seeing this, you may now see why indigenous folks are saying that everything we touch that isn't really who we are, we pollute!
Exodus, what do you think of this way of saying? i'm sure i could have said this much more succinctly; perhaps a better writer will take this and run with it! Good! -
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a bit more to add
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 7:52 PMone thing more to add as far as settler culture goes, it really is a top-down type of culture. A few stalwarts rise to the "leadership" often after having their very authoritarian impulses heavily funded by government; in dominant feminist politics, some feminists, those called "radical feminists" like Andrea Dworkin and Cathrine MacKinnon, received crucial funding and crucial openings and support at a very curious time for very curious reasons, while other feminists, namely the truly liberatory feminists like Pat Califia and Camille Paglia (or how about Karen McElroy?), who DID NOT preach an authoritarian scenario of retaliation (and further division), were heavily marginalized and struck from what is called "normal" feminist consciousness today.
And then they dictate the culture, and the rest of the community of feminists, takes those orders and basically goes in the direction they're herded. Oh, sure, individuals mumble and sometimes openly dissent, but their non-politicized/"political naivite" (aka crucial critique) is outwardly frowned upon, and "managed". Therapy is even advised for those who "refuse" to be "progressive".
And since the politics that took over's (when the professional activists and organizers entered the movement and commandeered it) sole purpose is to assimilate, and thus reinforce the chain-of-command of the state, the values of that dominant society must be replicated. If feminists --like all assimilators (whom usually know not what they do, or believe such is *all* that is open to them, as they look upon the fate of the Black Panthers and AIM)-- don't remain "vigilant" about these values and subordination to them? Ah, then CHAOS is said to arise and the ideologues step up and tell their constituencies to STOP THE BASHERS AND ABUSERS BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!
So, yes, this is a roughshod attempt to expose the reality of polytricks/politics, and why indigenous people are *rightly* critical of such.
Unless, of course, they are themselves seeking to assimilate (there is a growing number of this in indigenous communities, thanks to milliions in b.i.a. influence strategies, and "conservative" aboriginals as well --whom likely have been just as fooled and tooled as "liberal" aboriginals)...
If this latter is the case, then the meta is even more sinister, and MOVES ME to say, hey, maybe it's TIME to put my safety on the line to try to expose reality; and then be "offensive" if such a way of seeing gets entrenched (i.e. ideological/rigid ways of thinking used as trickery to blind righteous victims to a very narrow way of behaving and subordination to Given orders).
Know what i'm sayinG?
Come discuss this and more at:
radicalizedhuman.blogspot.com
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Unsu...
Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 10:03 PMTotally on point. Thanks for posting article, who wrote it? People need to be more open minded and less defensive. Important part of feminism for me, is respect, and if there is a whole community of women that feel this way, LISTEN! I've read similiar things by different Native AMerican women authors.. I have noticed this "culutre vulturism" by some white feminists as well. That doesn't mean I dismiss them automatically. No movement is perfect and its good to talk about the,good, the bad & ugly, haha. That will create a stronger movement. -
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cyndasoo, and other engaged feminists:::crucial questions to think through!
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 5:33 PMi thinc it's important to recall and remember herstory (!) in this matter. And i don't agree that it merely boils down to respect. If we are to get at the hearts (not merely the symptoms, or "roots") of how and why the feminist movement (and so many others!) got side-tracked into authoritarianism, as well as not seeing their confined consciousness (as Exodus topically exposes with Andy Smith's article), then i say we're going to have to look and think more deeply.
Let me begin touching on this idea of going more deeply by going over an analysis of somewhat recent feminist herstory, beginning at a most pivotal time, the mid-1970s.
So-called "radical" feminism (in its blanketly anti-porn, anti-male, et al hype stance) did not arise out of fair discussion or democratic methods. It did not arise out of the excellent diversity of dialogue in the plethora of feminist motions. To my understanding, the most authoritarian aspects of feminism arose with pivotal help from the status-quo, via grants that were suddenly becoming available to the most divisive groups during what was called "the crisis of democracy" (that those grant sources eventually dried up should not come as a surprise to anyone even slightly seasoned in the meta warfare of politics).
You can read more about this if you read Noam Chomsky's "Media Control" speech, where he goes into much more detail. Or you can read "The Crisis of Democracy" by the Trilateral Commission", published in 1975 (I once saw a copy at the University of Minnesota Library, for example).
These shadow interests, which continually seek to "manage" and "appropriately channel" social challenge and dissent, funded or in some other crucial way, supported, some groups while others were left in the lurch (certainly these others TRIED to get funding, but their work for such would have been much harder...unless i'm missing something crucial here...any seasoned feminists want to step up to the plate?).
One of these groups left in the lurch was the liberation feminists, whom, if you recall, in the 1970s were far from a marginal group. These feminists, including feminist men, saw the value of being forthright with their fellow human beings and they were creative and deeply inspiring to many many women at that time. And they used a minimal, if any, hype. These folks, including luminaries like Nadine Strossen or Pat Califia, may likely have asked: Why try to mobilize mobs when you can bring informal ways of reason and thoughtful human solidarity to communities of females (and other oppressed folks) wanting liberation from their pain?
But sentiments where everyone gets to have thoughtful input and gets to be truly heard was not welcome to the cammoflauged, or shadow interests seeking to remain steps ahead of, and in control of the mass mind; basically *ROLLBACK* the democratic visionary momentum to a situation similar to where feminists had first arisen from: overwhelm, panic, fear to speak up "too radically". After all, say these shadow interests, we're collectively and individually "not capable" of rationality, so the bigotry went (and remains). So they did like any c.i.a.-style operation in the "Third World" except it was done at home; they helped finance the most hyped-up factions, on the one hand, and worked, via covert means (see www.cointel.org for examples), to undermine authentically democratic and liberatory leanings on the other!
In short order, the truly liberatory aspect of feminism became jammed-up by the logs of rigidized, ideological intensity, and even hysteria. Open communication began to be replaced with *emotionally potent oversimplifications*. Peaceful relating and empathizing with each other replaced by alienated means of *talking at*, and *reflective attack* created by those most pained (or at least appearing to be). In short, the original excellence of the feminist promise, which had brought hundreds of thousands of women/womyn/ladies to these communities with very very high hopes and dreams, began to fall apart in a way that looked "natural" and centered in the most cynical of so-called "human nature".
Free associations and informal organization also began to be replaced by formalities. Professional, formally-trained specialists began appearing in the place of informal-oriented folks, telling them that they could run things "more efficiently". Little room was given to dissent and character assasination (amongst many other forms of subversion) began to become commonplace. In effect, the Ginny Foats and Lois Gibbs' of the feminist movement began to be marginalized by the so-called "big guns" of the Catherine MacKinnon-types in all their "professional" slickness.
i'm just touching on this stuff here, but i think any independently-thinking person can start to see that there is more to think about than meets the eyes in your typical PR-oriented feminist media.
So, to get back to your ideas, cyndasoo, things aren't really as they may appear to be in the heavy politicized undercurrents of feminism (or whatever other single issue you can name) these days. And not every feminist (or those seemingly on "our sides") wants to have democratic-leaning discussions that lead to open-ended supposed unknowns. We've been led to believe that movements aren't "perfect" (whatever that is), and as well, that open-ended dialogue is "possible"; but unless you understand your herstory (or history or her/history!) you're doomed to repeat the blindspots and well-funded superficial thinking that has long jammed-up and blocked liberation movements, and continues to this day.
As for the idea that such a momentum should now try to build itself, we need to understand that many have, and many have run short at the walls of ideology and strategically-challenged mind-set that permeate today's alleged people's organizations. The more naive and uninformed you are about these very real confines (especially doing with organization meta politics) which we're all supposed to remain in, the easier your "idealism" will be broken, and "more pragmatic" values filled in their place.
So there are a lot of questions to raise. And any authentically liberatory feminist *has got* to become aware in more serious ways. After all, these aren't merely academic exercises we're ultimately talking about, this is all revolving around real human beings. Human beings whom are to be kept divided from being able to be adequately heard, human beings whose liberatory desires are to be blocked and turned into the "normal" cynicism now running rampant in this severely alienated society that is called Western Civilization! -
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Unsu...
Re: cyndasoo, and other engaged feminists:::crucial questions to think through!
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 5:42 PMyep
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, February 3, 2008 - 10:40 AMWow. I can certainly appreciate where the writer is coming from. I've seen the same phenomenon time and time again and I struggle with it myself. However, I think it's important that we don't tar everyone with the same brush. As a "white" woman who is learning about First Nations spirituality (from a FN man) I have had many battles with myself about what it means to be learning about the ways and traditions of the people of this land. Contrary to what was written however, I am not ignorant of the serious and pervasive problems that have come about and persist as a result of the coming of "my" people. I know about the substance abuse, the forced sterilization, the fact that the land claims process in Canada is purposefully designed so that the people who bring the claims are dead by the time they come to be heard. I've seen the damage done by the imposed government, the horrors of residential school, the atrocity of First Nations people living in third-word conditions in a first world country, living with pollution many times that of other communities. I am ashamed of this place and what "my" people have done. So yeah, I guess you could say I'd like to distance myself from that.
I know that there are earth-based religions in my own ancestry, I've looked into them. But they come from far away places that mean virtually nothing to me. The land and trees I live on and have grown up with know nothing of the rituals from places abroad. This land is where I call home (realizing fully that it is stolen). This is why I feel more of an affiliation to the people who know it, who speak to it and understand it.
I DO hold myself accountable. The sins of my forefathers and foremothers are known to me and the damage they have done remains. It is left to me and my children to attempt to right those wrongs. I help wherever I can. I ask where I am needed. I do not presume to know what people need nor would I ever dream of writing a book about something that is not mine and never will be. But the people I know are eager to teach, they want to share, and I want to listen. Is there harm in that? Is it bad that my children will be raised with the idea that this land has been taken and with it, many lives? Should they not learn that they should be grateful for the birds, fish, trees, medicine plants, food plants and teachers in their life? Is it horrible that they will grow up with some understanding of the many forms of Indian spirituality but with it the understanding of how this spirituality was almost destroyed by our ancestors?
I have a dear friend who was manipulated by one of the phoneys about which you write. Realizing her mistake, she seeks actively to correct it. They convinced her to get a pipe, now she wants to bury it, knowing that the pipe and its medicine, came to her through the same forces that led to reservations and children being beaten for speaking their own language.
She and I approach the Old Ways with deep respect. We do not learn about smudging without learning about the high rates of TB, suicide and diabetes.
We are not all the same, just as you are not all the same.
Please don't shut us all out because of the ignorance of the women you write about. -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, February 3, 2008 - 11:51 AM"... New age spiritual wannabees in their white middle age have been doing this to Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist practices for 100's of years.
Your insistence on pointing only to white women is a bit racist and ignorant itself.
White covers a lot of racial backgrounds. So does brown. Call an East Indian from India a Pakistani and you'll get a very strong, probably virulent reaction.
You can't stop people from making money selling new age trinkets and books that misappropriate cultural spirituality. Anymore than you can stop someone from translating an ancient text and putting their own spin on the translation."
I read this and viewed it as anger towards feminists more than anything. There are points of truth in the article but they are equally blurred with a distorted perception. The "New Age Market" runs on fads and like any industry there are lots of opportunists. I agree allot of damage is done, allot of benefit is achieved as well.
In Calgary there is a "psychic" who claims a native ancestry, calls himself a shaman and sells "ceremonial services". None of the Native communities will admit he exists and the people I know tend to call him a charlatan. What I have noticed is the difference between his type and the so called feminists. His type is saying and doing what ever is easiest to get the most money where the feminist truthfully believes what she says and does. The Charlatan will always be a cheat and can never be trusted where the feminist is more trustworthy and likely to gain a deeper understanding. -
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Re: FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE INDIAN IN A FORMER LIFE
Sun, February 3, 2008 - 11:55 AMThis post is so silly to me....
I mean, there's always going to be people who try to make a buck through one angle or another.
And there are those with natural and skilled gifts who have something to offer.
And there's probably some in between the two...
who decided to bring this post up from the dregs?
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