Hi,
I wondering how many of you embrace both of these paths. I am not a shaman but I do have an interest in the quasi-shamanic elements of tantric Buddhism including the use of dreams and visions, possession states, magical ritual etc.
I also have an independent (but related) interest in applied psychonautics, which I consider to be similar to (but not the same as) shamanism.
If you have experience in pursuing the shamanic and Buddhist paths together, I'd be very in hearing about your experiences and views.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
I wondering how many of you embrace both of these paths. I am not a shaman but I do have an interest in the quasi-shamanic elements of tantric Buddhism including the use of dreams and visions, possession states, magical ritual etc.
I also have an independent (but related) interest in applied psychonautics, which I consider to be similar to (but not the same as) shamanism.
If you have experience in pursuing the shamanic and Buddhist paths together, I'd be very in hearing about your experiences and views.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
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Minnesota
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 8:29 AMI started out on the buddhist practice, it adds a certain element to a shaman. Its hard to put to words though so ill try. I think buddhism now is a good foundation to my shaman practice, it alows a place in which you can reside and clear your energy, clear your mind and in essence purify or even just calm down after a radical experience. It was the perfect place for me to start because i was young and devoted, the shamanism slowly made its way to me until i was fully immersed.
Its very wonderful too because you start to learn to be a roseta stone, speaking the different languages/traditions to the masses. I was living with a man this winter who realy dove deep into buddhism, meet the karmapa and all sorts. He also works with the native american church... He holds a certain space in his place that IS buddhist. I sat in a peyote meeting with him and he Interdemensionaly traveled, he meet up with his freind who was in truble in mexico, he was in deep coma and my man in essence cleared a path for him to make either choice, so they all the traditions do fit together, each offers different tools, so its what your up that will lead you to different paths
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 10:16 AMI am a believer in the buddhist cosmology, the workings of karma and the samsara. With the amazonian drink ayahuasca angels told me that healing others is the best way to spend this life and if we live from our higher selves we can live forever in the heart of the universe. To get there we go through all these different layers of the buddhist cosmology.
Here's some info from wikï: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
I have had deep sessions of meditation where this concentration and focus of lifting the spirit from the body helped in getting visions. If you add plant material, ayahuasca or sacred mushrooms, to the meditation it adds up to the focus and concentration. It is still a matter of the mind and body, but with some extra help you can really 'commit' to the experience, plus the visions are stronger.
The healing process has many different angles and entrances, the buddhist thinking is definately one that holds great wisdom of healing and peace. Old greek thinkers also have lot of knowledge of the universe and it's workings, to combine the wisdom with the point of light that is healing, is in my opinion a noble cause and a beautiful path to walk.
The plants can show you other parts of yourself and of the people around you. They can offer other angles and entrances to solve problems, they can make you 'experience' (keyword) the universe and it's workings of energy, vibe and light. 'That' combined with the knowledge of healing, knowledge of nature, wisdom, good intentions and humbility for life can make a great healer.
Peace, Love and Nakedness
Geert -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 6:14 AMhi geert
"With the amazonian drink ayahuasca angels told me that healing others is the best way to spend this life and if we live from our higher selves we can live forever in the heart of the universe."
i was thinking about this spirit of ayahuasca and all the healing and teaching she does and thought she is an ascended being who has kindly committed to us and this planet. and i recently met a shaman who she taught how to plant crops and preserve the soil in the forest and instructed him to teach as many people of the forest this wisdom she has given to him. and there are all the people like myself who have given themselves over to her teaching and instruction to work in the world in service to humanity and the planet.
i can't help think of ayahuasca spirit as some sort of dakini.
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 9:17 AMembrace - I'm ready to move down there. I could write with a pad and pencil or maybe find a manual typwriter. -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 10:56 AMblessings to you, D. follow your heart.
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 4:33 PMHey embrace.
Ayahuasca for me was an eye-opener.
I went in with a humble attitude towards anything I would find, realizing anything scary I would find would be an expression of my being . The manifestation of the manifestation with visions towards healing. There were the things I did not expect to find. I also used deep meditation, thinking of nothing at all, no dimples in my lake.
First there were people who got their heads cut off and their eyes would stare at mine from the darkness.
Then there were insects and I felt an ancient insect-instinct, I had to remind myself I was a breathing being.
Then there were the reptiles and an ancient reptile instinct, my intentions were good, I communicated my goodness.
Then there was a big snake floating, I showed my good intentions but it roared at me and showed it's horrifying throat.
I opened my eyes and was emotional, why did it not want to play. I closed my eyes.
Then two points of light came from the cracks of reality that I hold so dear. They came from a different dimension, a place far away and also very.. very close, heaven, they spoke a universal language of pure intent and goodness.
"Why are you emotional..?"
"The big snake didn't want to play.."
"We understand.." They said.."We understand everything"
They dove in my body of light and healed me. Turned every negative feeling into goodness and gratefullness and grace.
I thanked them a million times with tears to my eyes, I am so gratefull, thankfull.
Then they tought me about the universe, so much, so very much in a few seconds, too much to work out.
Later I found out these are stages that are mentioned in the buddhist cosmology, through the realms that are like hell, to realms where lower animal spirits roam, to realms where healing spirits roam. and even beyond that there are many stages of consciousness and karma.
It was an experience that changed my life in a very positive way. Since then I have been a new person with a new inspiration for life. Life is to be lived, and the beauty and pureness of it is all around, the spirit of flowers, plants, people. The best way, to keep healing and showing the beauty that surrounds us. They beauty that is us. The beauty that is all.
We are manifestations of our true nature, spirit. From there we can work out the universe. The wisdom of our ancestors lies in ourself, the creation lies in us. And if we keep searching, we'll keep finding and keep knowing.
Then again it's also a big lie. Let's keep dancing, keep making fires, keep kissing, keep fucking, keep celebrating.
Woohoo
Geert -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:05 AMSometimes life is BuddaFull and others its a Shame as manisims abound.
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 6:35 AMLater I found out these are stages that are mentioned in the buddhist cosmology, through the realms that are like hell, to realms where lower animal spirits roam, to realms where healing spirits roam. and even beyond that there are many stages of consciousness and karma.
my instinct told me before i ever drank that it was good practice for navigating the bardo, geert. what do you think? aside from the specific tantric practices for such things.
i heard while here that the dalai lama is planning to build a new home in the amazon and that he has visited with indigenous people here. do you know anything about what the black hats say about entheogens? -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:42 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Later I found out these are stages that are mentioned in the buddhist cosmology, through the realms that are like hell, to realms where lower animal spirits roam, to realms where healing spirits roam. and even beyond that there are many stages of consciousness and karma.
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It has always been my conviction that the overarching cosmological framework of Buddhism (especially Tantric Buddhism) was derived from direct experiential (ie visionary) sources.
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my instinct told me before i ever drank that it was good practice for navigating the bardo, geert. what do you think? aside from the specific tantric practices for such things.
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According to a well-known rnying-ma (aka “black hat”) lama named chos kyi nyi ma rin po che (who is abbot of one of the largest monasteries in Nepal) datura is still used in Tibet by advanced meditators and yogins. This is done to test their ability to remain unaffected by powerful visionary experiences. This is closely related to the yogic ability to remain unaffected by visions in the "between-state" (Sk. antarabhava Tib. bar do) after death.
The ability to recognize visionary appearances -as- visionary appearances, and the ability to remain in a state of calm presence despite awesome or frightening appearances are abilities that would seems useful in the bardo. Ayahuasca/yage would seem to provide an excellent opportunity to practice such a skill set.
In addition to the possibility that entheogens provide a way to prepare for the bardo, the reverse also appears to be true. Many people have found the _bar do thos sgrol_ (“the Tibetan book of the dead”) to be an extremely useful guide to navigating the bizarre and often frightening realms presented by entheogenic substances.
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. do you know anything about what the black hats say about entheogens?
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The Cittatilaka teachings from the Upadesavarga of Ati-yoga (the highest section of anuttara-tantra teachings in the rnying-ma school) have a number of texts that refer to the magico-religious and visionary use of datura (providing recipes for pills and ointments etc). These include a gter-ma attributed the 8th century Kashmiri author and translator Vimalamitra (dri-med bshes-gnyen). This text is called Vimalamitra’s Cittatilaka (bi-ma snying-thig) or Vimalamitra’s Guhyacittatilaka (bi ma'i gsang ba snying thig).
Another such text is “The Four Branches of the Heart Essence” (snying-thig ya-bzhi) by the 14th century rnying-ma author Longchen Rabjampa (klong chen rab ’byams pa).
Hope this helps,
Ryan -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 2:56 PMHey Ryan
Funny you mentioned the Tibetan Book Of The Dead. I read it and what I learned from it is that life is the same as death. Those instructions to follow after you are dead I felt also apply in this waking life. It's our projecting mind that gives value to everything around. This is a nice theory Sartre wrote a lot about too, it boils down to the mere magic of our existence, those basic set of emotions. All else is an overrational mind that explains things that are not there, merely projections of a complicated mindset. It is also a path of healing, to know where these projections come from, these personal demons, these magic emotions. Childhood-trauma or the separating of loved-ones, many many causes (and solutions) are there.
And Embrace.... my ayahuasca-experience also confirmed that idea, that we have no reason to be afraid or to lack, that all emotions are the projections of our mind. And that unspoken good intentions will resonate through everything and everybody you meet. A smile or a gesture can make a great difference in relating to people, animals, plants and all things. That's what the ayahuasca taught me, we have an immens effect everyday, on everything we do, everybody we meet. Death does not really exist, death is like life and life is like death. What you are now, you are still gonna be when your heart stops beating, we learn and grow all the time. And the goodness is in all of us if we just open up to it. To make that tiny dot of light a big flame and set the stage on fire.
But I doubt that it would have been the same experience if I had not had a fascination or a passion for these things. If I had not the same friend who I talk about this with, if I had not read the Book Of The Dead, if I had not read Jung, Sartre, Plato and books about shamanic world views, if I had not listened to Terrence McKenna and Alan Watts. I don't think it would have been the same without their knowledge. Maybe it would, but I would not be able to put it in a frame of this life's philosophy. That's interesting..how that rational mind gives in to the magic and the spirit. That's my personal great puzzle and question....Can the spirit be intellectual...
I have never experienced the datura. My friend's father grows them in his garden, it's smell is magical, it's flowers look toxic and almost evil.. haha. I read about people who completely lost their sense of reality for weeks after going into it unprepared, totally dissociated. I can imagine that it takes a very tranquil mind to be able to deal with those hallucinations.
Peace
Geert -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:50 AMgeert, it's been a while since i read the tibetan book of the dead and you have inspired me to pick it up again. like you, i feel everything comes back to intention and compassion wherever we go, in this life between life and in the next. if we do nothing else, let us cultivate loving compassion.
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 11:53 PMthank you geert ...
"we have no reason to be afraid or to lack, that all emotions are the projections of our mind. And that unspoken good intentions will resonate through everything and everybody you meet."
I'm taking this wisdom as a daily reading this week ... it really resonates with what I need to hear right now. thank you
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:45 AMthank you ryan! very informative!
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 6:48 AMOften people start with one or the other and in their studies cross over.
Both are mostly Animist in nature.
Many buddhists are shamans and vice versa, Shinto is also very similiar, and Bon is very Tibetan
Not all buddhists would be considered animists though, there are quite a few different buddhist traditions, and some are even at odds with each other on certain points. -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 5:51 AMdharma or natural law is a lot different than buddhism with the ism, so which do you mean. dharma can involve devotional practices as well. dharma for me goes well witht the medicine path but really serious meditators in pure vipassana and anapana techiniques tend to neg out about medicines -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:26 AMThat's interesting.
I had a discussion with a friend. The talk circled around the given that these medicine can stimulate the visualisation of the energy and spiritual workings. It can all be done pure natural, without the help of, for example, sacred mushroom or ayahuasca. To heal yourself and to heal others no real stimulant is neccesary. It can all be done by the power of word, self-suggestion and meditative trance.
My view on it is that the medicine is a catalyst for those who are not yet familiar with meditation or bodily energy flows and the knots in energy. When in healing there is always the relation between doctor and patient. So there should be the wisdom of the doctor and the willingness of the patient to be healed. When the patient or the student is not yet familiar with the workings of healing they should in a way allow the knowledge enter their system through mind, body and spirit. The medicine in that way can be a tool for easier communication, and allowing information to enter the mind. Which is again connected to the body and spirit.
Also the stimulant can be a catalyst for the doctor to get into trance fast while maintaining focus on the healing. Together with the patient they can reach the same level of consciousness and go through the body of light to clear out the negative elements in the body. The doctor can help in that stage recognizing and dealing with the patients personal demons, together with the patient.
Now my knowledge of buddhism is not so great that I no that many details of the different paths within it. But I gues that is where the difference lies, when one goes into deep meditative trance for peace of mind or goes into deep trance to obtain visions to work with. Both ways are in essence based on the same techniques, only for the visions one allows the information to work with the body, the other neglects them to have no external stimuli at all. To go really deep into the bardo.
Perhaps one can compare it to dissolving the spirit as broad as possible next to fluently allowing the spirit to take shape like a tool to work with. Both need wisdom of spirit, willpower and trance. Only the intent is different.
That's what it is all about right..? Intent.
Peace, Love and Nakedness
Geert
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:31 PMAyahuasca helped me realize impermanence and being present
I think they go hand in hand. -
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Re: Shamanism and Buddhism
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 12:29 PMAnicca baby! or Anicha not sure how its "spelt" (a wheat product}
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