My first time I felt the earth take me over like roots and vines engulfing my body and had a major grounding experience. Another time I was underwater and also a graphic element of light. I would like to guide myself into the visions for healing. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to maintain a directive?
Has anyone tried it?
What was your experience?
Namaste.
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 8:37 AM>>I would like to guide myself into the visions for healing.
>>Does anyone have any suggestions for how to maintain a directive?
Speaking purely in an abstract and theoretical mode (not to be construed as advice for the “real-world”)…
Unquestionably, quids and/or tinctures are much more useful for guided work or "maintaining directives".
Smoked extracts propel one into an imaginal maelstrom with such overwhelming power that directing the experience seems nigh-hopeless. Only the most gifted of experienced users will have that ability.
The longer duration and slower onset make quidding the most viable option for any sort of goal directed activity in the imaginal realms IMHO.
SWIM, has found that a 10x extract combined with 5-MeO-DMT to be perfect as a bardo flight-simulator. The combo seems very useful to practice maintaining a sense of centered presence despite overwhelming visionary experiences and the total collapse of ordinary ego structures.
Best Regards,
Ryan -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 8:57 AMBTW, I'm not claiming that the salvia/5-MeO-DMT combo facilitates an experience truly like the bardo (Sk. antarabhava).
Rather, I am saying that the ability to recognize visionary appearances -as- visionary appearances, and the ability to remain in a state of calm presence despite awesome or frightening appearances are abilities that would seems useful in the bardo.
This is similar to the way that the ability to recognize dreams -as- dreams, and the ability to remain in a state of calm presence despite finding oneself in a nightmare are abilities that are useful in the bardo.
The ability to maintain presence and recognition during such an experience is no guarantee that one can navigate the bardo, but it would certainly seem to improve one’s odds
Warm regards,
Ryan -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:14 AMLovey-
My sense is that La Maria's medicine is perfectly suited for vision quests, healing work, communication with the Ancestors, soul retrieval and much more.
I echo Ryan's advice about quidding. Quidding fresh leaf is not only the traditional indigenous way of meeting this medicine, but it also opens a road that is, at once, gentler and deeper, a road that is, I feel, more conducive to healing work. If you don't have access to fresh leaf, dried leaves can be rehydrated in alcohol just before the journey.
Smoking the leaf, particularly enhanced leaf (extracts), can be tricky, especially when you talk about healing work. The journey tends to move quicker, and be a bit harder to navigate. It can also be more challenging to bring medicine back from journeys taken across the Bridge of Smoke.
There is, I feel, a great deal of wisdom to be found in the indigenous approach to this Green Elder, as reflected in the ways of the Mazatec Elders. In other words, I can fully understand why they quid, rather than smoke, the leaves. If you only have access to extracts, you could try cheek smoking, rather than inhaling. This can bring one to an experience that's more like quidding than smoking.
As for maintaining one's intentions for the journey...
I begin every dance with ceremony, staring with prayers of gratitude and thanks to the spirit of the plant, to my Ancestors and all helping spirits. I follow this with offerings, including Cacao Beans. As I give my offerings, I share my purpose for journeying, and speak from my heart. I may sing - but always quietly - or simply sit in silence, reflecting on the dance ahead. At the end of the journey, no matter how it goes, I close with more offerings of thanks and prayers of great gratitude.
During the journey itself, when I meet medicine I'd like to consciously bring back with me, I try, as best as possible, to repeat to myself what it is I'd like to bring back. If one goes deep enough, this may be difficult, if not impossible, to do at the time, but as the medicine begins to soften and you make your return to this world, it gets easier. I keep it simple, and keep repeating what I hope to bring back like a mantra - under water, shimmering bird, triangle symbol, violet flower. And once I return more fully, I write everything down, in as much detail as possible. For me, this is helpful.
I feel that La Maria has a particularly strong relationship with intention. It's important to her. So if we enter the dance with a clear intention, the dance itself will usually be clearer all around. Intention has a certain magnetic presence to it, and this grows in intensity the clearer our intention becomes. This magnetic presence then draws us more fully, and more effectively, through La Maria's world. The stronger it is, the more clearly and more fully we're lead through the dance.
Respect, reverence and clarity of intention are, for me, the foundations of the dance. I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for this beautiful Green Elder.
Love,
Veg -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:16 AMI am healed of order by the rearranging properties of salvia. -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 7:09 PMThank you. Your insights are very appreciated.
Indeed Ryan, having an eye open during the vision sounds helpful in guiding it. I have been so deep inside the plant that I have not known top from bottom, inside or out. It would leave me as tho coming from a dream and pulling the details out as if it were...strands sparking the memory of the next...
I have not experienced taking medicine from a quest yet. I had hoped that the attention itself would help heal...thank you for showing me a step further, Veg. I also agree that cheek smoking would probably make the most sense if it cannot be chewed. Often my lungs do not want to function after the smoke..this may relieve that tension.
ik, how well described of 'the rearranging properties of salvia'. I wonder why would a plant rearrange us? -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:03 PMI think Salvia Divinorum rearranges us because it has a specific message to tell us.
From what I learned of Shamanism, plants and fungi are a direct, egoless voice of Gaia/God/the creatrix, and I belive have been each tasked with something to say, a lesson perhaps.
I really enjoy reading others explorations, and I see so many parallels in Iyawaska, Iboga, Anamita Muscaria and Psylliscibin, and even pot reports, but I've never experienced the symmetry of repeat experience I get from salvia with anything else!
When I smoke it, I experience that pulled to earth feeling, like vines or quicksand, and I always feel like I fall out of my chair or thru the couch or floor, EVERY TIME! Then, no matter how many times I've done it, I look around at everyone there and say or feel "ha ha, very funny, jokes on me, eh?" which my friends love, and want me to do salvia again because despite wild variations in other experiences, I always do that on salvia! lol
So absolutely, I do believe Salvia Divinorum is a 'talking' plant, that can be smoked for vision quests, and taught me to be more grounded, more earthy, and reminds me of what lies beneath. It also reminded me that because this is my 'subjective reality', that yes, the joke is indeed on me! However, I seem to get the same recording every time from it, and only repeat it to take my ego down a peg or two, not to explore anything new...
tho I have never tried the tincture, or in shroom tea.... hmmmm
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 5:26 PMnovice, but had a recent breakthrough . . .
symptoms have always been this backward spiraling feel, can't hold onto anything, thoughts escape . . . but, if you go in with an intent, and can recall that intent or another pertinent question, you will taken immediately to that gate (guide, porthole, plane, etc.), so be careful what you ask for . . . this is a diving tool . . .
Anam Cara, AP
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 5:22 PMI have a suggestion...
Try eating it... more making a tea..
It is a much longer, more intimate commune with the plant spirit...
I described it as making love to the salvia, as opposed to the Wham Bam Thank You Mam of smoking it...
Last 4-6 hours 8 in the extreme... -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 5:37 PMI would never ever want to be there that long. -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 9:43 PMIt is much more like mushrooms than DMT... when taken this way... you would love i bet... -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 9:43 PMOr if you have done Ayahuasca and smoked DMT...you know what I am talking about here...
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 7:42 AMRe: ' would never ever want to be there that long. '
ke,ke,ke... I guess that's why it's so sacred & revered. Ja, I gotta experience eating her ( I've tried the x5 extract a coupla times).. I've made a paste/liquidised recently - just have to be clear & be in the right space 1st before I 'step up'. Will post a report as soon as I try.
1Love
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 7:44 AMI know the indigenously that chewing a quid would be the normal method, and that that should last longer . . . I don't have access to pure leaves only the extracts . . . can you tea from these? AP -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 8:04 AMA tea would be ineffective.
Alcohol based tinctures can be created with the fortified leaf material you posses. These would be difficult to judge dosage with however, and such tinctures tend to burn the mouth. That said, many prefer these to quiding.
Tinctures are held in the mouth, not drank. Eating or drinking salvia produces little effect. -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 3:55 PMLOL.... Not true friend... I have done it plenty of times... Don't know why you think this... but oh well... But I did mention that absorption through the mucus membranes is quicker... -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 4:07 PMOh... sorry that was another post.... When Chewing a Quid... You allow the saliva to absorb the salvia and your mucus membranes absorb the Salvinorium A.... It is best to swallow... But only after holding under the tongue or in the cheek for 10-15 minutes... -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 4:17 PMWhen making a Tea... You will get a fine oil on the top layer of the water.. That is where the Diterpene Salvinorium A is... Alcohol does yield better... that is true for any tea or Tincture... and Salvia is not an exception...
So no offense but saying the Tea is ineffective is like saying Chewing Coca Leaves is Ineffective... Compared to Snorting Cocaine...
So it is just a Big DUH factor... stating the obvious.. tinctures are More powerful than Teas... Period...
Also I am more instructing them to make an Infusion rather than a Tea...
But most people do not know the difference, so thus, I say Tea.
I am a Shaman, Herbologist, Ethnobotanist and Organic Chemist....
Once again... No Offence...
Peace...
Om A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhih Dhih Dhih
Om Bhaisajye Bhaisajye Maha Bhaisajye Rajasamudgate Svaha
Om Ah Hum, Vajra Guru Padma Siddhe Hum -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 4:22 PMFriends,
My experience also says that the Tea is indeed active. Different than other roads, and to a different degree, but effective.
And if the medicine is blended with other Green Elders - friend of the Mother - the tea is even stronger.
There are lots of ways to enter the Mother's world.
Respect,
Veg -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 10:11 AMthank you... you could easily make too much tea... I have before... had very intense experiences... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:17 PMSitting Here this morning... Drink Some Pepper Mint Tea... MMMM I sure can taste that Menthol Oil... Even though it is only 'Slightly Soluble' in water...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol
Terpenes and terpenoids are the primary constituents of the essential oils of many types of plants and flowers. Essential oils are used widely as natural flavor additives for food, as fragrances in perfumery, and in traditional and alternative medicines such as aromatherapy. Synthetic variations and derivatives of natural terpenes and terpenoids also greatly expand the variety of aromas used in perfumery and flavors used in food additives. Vitamin A is an example of a terpene.
Diterpenes are composed for four isoprene units and have the molecular formula C20H32. They derive from geranylgeranyl pyrophosphate. Examples of diterpenes are cafestol, kahweol, cembrene and taxadiene (precursor of taxol). Diterpenes also form the basis for biologically important compounds such as retinol, retinal, and phytol. They are known to be antimicrobial and antiinflammatory. The herb Sideritis contains diterpenes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diterpene
BTW Salvinorium A is a Diterpene
You can Always Whip the Horse's Eyes...
Jim Morrison....
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 5:28 PM>Don't know why you think this...
It is my understanding that salvinorins are essentially not water-soluble so teas would have -very- little of the active chemical. Likewise, while normal oral consumption of relatively large amounts may produce some psychoactive effects, that route of administration is so inefficient that "ineffective" seems the appropriate descriptor.
If you can point towards research/studies that contradict any of the above, I'd be most interested.
Warm Regards,
Ryan -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 10:04 AM"It is my understanding that salvinorins are essentially not water-soluble"
Correct, they are... Being Diterpene they form an Oil layer on the water... which is easily drank... the extraction works fine and can be extremely potent...
"so teas would have -very- little of the active chemical."
No... Tea or Infusion would have plenty of the active chemical... just don't throw out the oil layer...
"Likewise, while normal oral consumption of relatively large amounts may produce some psychoactive effects, that route of administration is so inefficient that "ineffective" seems the appropriate descriptor."
Though I agree it less efficient than making a tincture or even smoking straight leaf... What I am talking about is a Long Lasting Mellow, Less intense commune with the plant... My Point is... You can, in fact, blow your mind if you think it is not effective...
Ineffective would mean that it has no effect... not little effect....
In closing, it has a full blow effect... not reduced in anyway... when you grow these plants as I do... you end up with garbage bags of leaves... Why not just try it... I have... I do it all the time...
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 10:09 AMTelling someone that the tea is ineffective... and they say make a tea thinking 2.5 micograms of salvinorium A per leaf... I need 250 mics to get a full effect... but wait to guy said it was 'ineffective' maybe i should go for 500.... yea... so boil 200 leaves... then they drink that... and trip soooo hard.... would be funny i guess.... as long as they did not have a psychological problem from it... I remember this one time... I had some 8 Way... thought I was taking 3... was 24.... was fun....
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:34 AMI tried it when I was unfortunately uneducated about its uses, effects, purpose etc. I was told it was the same as cannabis.
We smoked it at, again I was uneducated, the most haunted hotel in the French Quarter. I had the pulled to the ground feeling, and laying there felt I was surrounded by a crowd of people who were talking amongst themselves about me. After I came to, I made my friend tell me what it was, and I have never been so angry or felt so betrayed by someone I trusted.
Now that I am a little more educated and a lot more aware, I've thought about trying it again, in a much healthier environment. I found a lot of information at www.sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html I have no idea of the validity of the site, but it's something.
Hope this helps!
<3 -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:27 PMHow unfair....I've had a mouthful of saliva my entire life and I've never even gotten a buzz!
:(
phooey
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 8:29 PMdarn... most not have been any Salvia Divinorum in that Saliva.... -
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Re: Salvia use in Vision Quests
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 8:35 PMOn that note... Salvia is the Genus name... Not the species name... All Sages are in the Genus Salvia... It means... To Heal, or simply Healer... Salvia Divinorum, or Diviner's Sage... Or Divine Healer... Or even Healing Divination...
List of Salvia species
* Salvia apiana - White sage, California white sage.
* Salvia argentea - Silver sage.
* Salvia arizonica - Arizona sage, Desert indigo sage, a purple-flowering annual.
* Salvia austriaca - Austrian sage.
* Salvia azurea - Blue sage, Azure blue sage; very big bright blue flowers.
* Salvia candelabrum - a blue-flowering scented sage.
* Salvia carnosa - a blue-flowering annual, native to the Arizona desert.
* Salvia clevelandii - Blue sage, Cleveland sage, Fragrant sage.
* Salvia coccinea - Blood sage, a scarlet-flowered tender perennial
* Salvia columbariae - Chia, Chia sage, California chia.
* Salvia divinorum - Diviner's sage.
* Salvia dorrii - Ute Tobacco Sage (mild hallucinogen when smoked)
* Salvia farinacea - Mealycup sage, annual in temperate climates will survive mild winters
* Salvia forreri
* Salvia fulgens - Cardinal sage, Mexican red sage, a red-flowering perennial
* Salvia funerea – Death Valley sage
* Salvia glutinosa
* Salvia greggii - Autumn sage, a red-flowered sage with a very strong scent
* Salvia guaranitica - Anise sage or hummingbird sage.
* Salvia hispanica - the Chia of commerce.
* Salvia leucantha - Mexican bush sage, velvety spikes of violet-purple and white, 3' tall.
* Salvia leucophylla - Purple sage.
* Salvia libanotica - Mediterranean or middle eastern sage
* Salvia longistyla - Mexican sage.
* Salvia lyrata - Lyre-leaved sage, Lyreleaf sage.
* Salvia mexicana - Mexican sage, medium blue to violet and lavender, 8' to 10' tall.
* Salvia miltiorrhiza - Chinese sage
* Salvia officinalis - Common sage.
* Salvia patens - a blue-flowering annual.
* Salvia polystachya - Chia sage, Chia seed.
* Salvia potus - Chia.
* Salvia pratensis - Meadow clary or Meadow sage.
* Salvia roemeriana - Cedar Sage; this species prefers shady moist areas
* Salvia sclarea - Clary or Clary sage.
* Salvia spathacea - Pitcher sage or Hummingbird sage.
* Salvia splendens - Scarlet sage.
* Salvia verbenaca - Wild clary, Wild sage.
* Salvia verticillata - Whorled clary, Lilac sage, a white- or blue-flowering perennial with the scent of Clary
* Salvia viridis (syn.: S. horminum) - Painted sage.
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