KUNDALINI------A REALITY

topic posted Wed, April 16, 2008 - 3:22 AM by  Yogi madan

What is kundalini?


``Kundalini'' literally means coiling, like a snake. In the classical literature of hatha yoga kundalini is described as a coiled serpent at the base of the spine. The image of coiling, like a spring, conveys the sense of untapped potential energy. Perhaps more meaningfully kundalini can be described as a great reservoir of creative energy at the base of the spine.
It's not useful to sit with our consciousness fixed in our head and think of kundalini as a foreign force running up and down our spine. Unfortunately the serpent image may serve to accentuate this alien nature of the image. It's more useful to think of kundalini energy as the very foundation of our consciousness so that when kundalini moves through our bodies our consciousness necessarily changes with it.

The concept of kundalini can also be examined from a strictly psychological perspective. From this perspective kundalini can be thought of as a rich source of psychic or libidinous energy in our unconscious.

In the classical literature of Kashmir Shaivism kundalini is described in three different manifestions. The first of these is as the universal energy or para-kundalini. The second of these is as the energizing function of the body-mind complex or prana-kundalini. The third of these is as consciousness or shakti-kundalini which simultaneously subsumes and intermediates between these two. Ultimately these three forms are the same but understanding these three different forms will help to understand the differerent manifestations of kundalini.





What is the difference between prana and kundalini? What is the difference between qi (or chi) and kundalini?


First let us try to relate to concepts from the same tradition - prana and kundalini. Prana has been translated as the ``vital breath'' and ``bio-energetic motility''; it is associated with maintaining the functioning of the mind and body. Kundalini, in its form as prana-kundalini, is identical to prana ; however, Kundalini also has a manifestations as consciousness and a as a unifying cosmic energy. One could ascribe these same aspects to prana as well so past a certain point these become distinctions without differences.

From the subjective standpoint of an individual actually experiencing the awakening of kundalini I have found three completely different opinions:

The first opinion is that a pranic awakening is only a prelude to a full kundalini awakening. Tibetan yogins that I have encountered consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). What's attractive about this viewpoint is that it explains the difference between the experience of simply having pleasant sensations in the spine and the much more powerful experience of having a ``freight-train''-like full kundalini experience.

The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for example, is that prana and kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is not meaningful in any way to describe a difference between kundalini rising and prana rising. When posed with question as to how to distinguish between pleasant sensations that show some pranic-activity in the spine and the much more powerful experience Swami Shivom Tirth said that the difference is not in the nature of the activity but in the consciousness that observes it. If the consciousness that experiences the pranic activity is seated within the spine (or more correctly, the central channel, known as the sushumna), then the experience is felt much more powerfully.

The third opinion, espoused by the modern hatha yogin, Desikaran, is that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for and kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikaran sees the kundalini as a block in the central channel and thus the kundalini must be ``killed'' to make way for the prana. This is the most unusual view of the three.

The Chinese concept of qi (or chi) can be safely identified with the Indian concept of prana.

If all this seems confusing - don't worry, you're in good company. My conclusion is that these are all different terminologies for dealing with a common set of experiences. Any one of these viewpoints is adequate for describing the full range of experiences. What is probably more relevant is to distinguish two different experiences which are often confused. In one an individual experiences some pleasant energizing electric energy running along the spine. This experience itself brings about a wide range of experiences and results in vitality and sensitivity.

Another very distinct experience is the experience of kundalini entering the sushumna and rising up the spine. As soon as kundalini enters the sushumna this experience will completely overwhelm ordinary waking consciousness. From the moment that kundalini enters the sushumna there will no longer be a distrinction between the subjective consciousness which experiences and the object of experience. This experience much more profoundly transfigures consciousness.





If kundalini is universal, why do some kundalini yogins seem to have more kundalini-energy than others?


It's an intriguing question. If an individual's kundalini is viewed as simply a personal reservoir of a cosmic energy then why would one person appear to have more of a reservoir of kundalini energy than another? Nevertheless, this does appear to be the case. This is probably another advantage of the viewpoint that prana (or qi) is the same as kundalini.
Some Chinese texts distinguish between ``innate qi'' or ``pre-natal qi'' that one is born with and ``cultivated qi'' that can be developed. Clearly some people simply have more ``innate qi.'' This manifests as a stronger more resilient body and greater general vitality.

Through training those that have relatively weak ``innate qi'' may surpass those who have strong ``innate qi'' but do not train. There are many stories in the Chinese literature of Qi Gong about people who took up Qi Gong in order to improve their poor health became powerful martial artists or great qi gong masters. Of course those that have strong ``innate qi'' and also train their qi may develop the strongest qi of all.





What does kundalini have to do with spiritual enlightenment? What is the goal of kundalini yoga?


First we need a few concepts: In yogic anatomy the sushumna is the central channel and conduit for the kundalini energy that runs along our spine and up to the crown of our head. Along this channel are placed additional channel networks called cakras. These cakras are associated with major aspects of our anatomy - for example our throat, heart, solar plexus, and in turn these aspects of our anatomy are related to aspects of our human nature.
According to the literature of kundalini yoga our experience of these centers is limited due to knots which restrict the flow of energy into these centers. Three knots are particuarly important. The knot of Brahma which restricts the center at the base of the spine. The knot of Vishnu which restricts the heart center and the knot of Rudra which restricts the center between the eyebrows. These knots form an important framework in yogic thinking and the stages toward enlightenment are articulated in terms of breaking through these knots in the yogic classic the Hatha Yoga Pradipika as well as in some of the yoga upanishads. Specifically, four stages of progress are described:


arambha

ghata

parichaya

nishpatti



Arambha is associated with breaking the knot of Brahma and the awakening of kundalini.

Ghata is associated with breaking the knot of Vishnu and and with internal absorption.

Parichaya the absorption deepens and in

nishpatti the knot of Rudra is pierced and the kundalini may ascend to the center at the crown of the head. In this state transcendence is integrated and, according to the yogic liteature, the yogi has nothing more to attain.

Putting these elaborate physiological decriptions aside, the goal of kundalini yoga is the same as the goal of any legimitate spiritual practice: To be liberated from the limited bounds of the self-centered and alienated ego. In kundalini yoga this is associated with internal manifestations of the kundalini but the external manifestations should be similar to any other legitiimate spiritual practice.





So does everyone agree that kundalini awakening is necessary for enlightenment?


The view that kundalini awakening is necessary for enlightenment is held in the diverse literature of Kashmir Shaivism and in other Hindu Tantric literature. It is found in the literature of the Hatha Yogis and the Nath Sampradaya. You will find similar views in many Buddhist Tantric works. In addition this view is held by recent spiritual figures such as Shri Ramakrishna, Swami Sivananda, Paramahamsa Yogananda and Swami Vivekananda and of course by contemporary kundalini yogins themselves.

Nevertheless there are some dissenters from this view. These include Sri Chinmoy, Da Free John and Gurdjieff. Dissent can take a number of different forms. For Gurjieff kundalini is associated only with a binding force that leads us to be more attached to the world. Such a view of kundalini is not entirely inaccurate but only reflects the functioning of kundalini in the lower energy centers. For Sri Chinmoy kundalini is an amplifying function that may make an individual more powerful but not more enlightened. From my perspective this also only addresses the impact of kundalini while it operates in the lower energy centers.

Da Free John (born Franklin Jones, a. k. a. Da Love Ananda) has a much more fundamental criticism of kundalini. As far as I understand his position, for him enlightenment cannot be the result of an experience; it is a cognitive transformation. Kundalini may evoke a wide variety of experiences but these are not in and of themselves enlightening. This is an interesting perspective but it seems to assume that the raising of kundalini is an experience in which an ego-consciousness experiences a separate object known as kundalini. Again, this view is consistent with the experience of kundalini in the lower energy centers in which the ego is detached from the movement of kundalini and kundalini experiences are precieved as separate from oneself. However, I would argue that as kundalini rises the ego-consciousness becomes infused in a more fundamental consciousness of cit-shakti-kundalini and this experience does in fact produce a fundamental cognitive change.

Finally, there are many other spiritual practices, such as Zen, Vipassana meditation that consider kundalini irrelevant. Some practitioners or even teachers of these paths, such as Jiyu Kennet, may have kundalini experiences but generally kundalini is not a pivotal part of these paths.





Can I use kundalini yoga simply to improve my health?


Yoga exercises which were traditionally used to purify the body in preparation for awakening the kundalini can also be used simply to improve the health. To practice techniques aimed at actively awakening kundalini with the goal of simply improving your health seems to be a misuse of these powerful techniques.

There are those that teach kundalini yoga principally emphasizing its benefits on health without much discussion of the spiritual benefits. This is how hatha yoga has been taught in the west for some time. The affect of this approach depends on the attitude of the student. There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to improve your health but there is a tension between awakening an energy that will ultimately burn up the ego and trying to shape that energy to simply fulfill an ego-oriented motive.





Is there any scientific basis for kundalini and the cakras? Do I really have to believe that all these cakras physically exist?


Research on kundalini is especially spotty. There is no compelling work to show that the system represents insights into actual human anatomy. But it's important to understand that kundalini and its network of channels and cakras is simply how yogins have chosen to explain their experience and that yogins from many cultures have arrived at similar, though not identical, concepts. The true physical mechanisms underlying these experiences may be very different from those described. Izaak Benthov has proposed a model to explain kundalini in terms of micro- motion in the brain. In this model experiences are associated with parts of the body, such as the heart, because the part of the brain associated with that part of the body is stimulated by micro-vibrations. His model is treated in ``The Kundalini Experience'' by Sannella referenced below. From a practical perspective the key thing is our subjective experience and that the roadmap of these subjective experiences has been mapped out.





Is Chinese qi gong a kind of kundalini yoga?


If there is any contemporary teaching that is even more diverse in approach than kundalini yoga it must be qi gong. As a result it is hard to compare kundalini yoga to qi gong. From my limited exposure to qi gong it is clear there are many qi gong practices that are identical to kundalini yoga practices. What is also clear is that may qi gong practitioners have reported experiences that are identical to those of kundalini yogins. In so far as each of these practices aims at eliminating blocks to the qi/prana energy then they share a common ground.





What about Tibetan Buddhism - has kundalini been known in Tibet?


Kundalini yoga in the Natha Sampradaya and Vajrayana in Tibetan Buddhism both take their origin from the Mahasiddhas who were active in India from the 8th century to the 12th century. Kundalini yoga practices formed the core of the teachings of a number of these Mahasiddhas and are strongly represented in both Tibetan Buddhist practices and contemporary kundalini yoga practices. Kundalini yoga was spoken of as ``Candali yoga'' by these Mahasiddhas and became known as gTummo rnal 'byor in Tibet. Candali yoga was a key practice of the famous Tibetan yogin Milarepa. The role of kundalini yoga in Tibetan Buddhism is discussed in more detail in the Kundalini Yogas FAQ.





Are there any other traditions that show awareness of kundalini?


If you believe that kundalini is at the basis of spiritual progress then every valid spiritual tradition must have some awareness of kundalini. Christianity (especially Quakerism and Pentecostalism), Sufism, Qabalistic mysticism, alchemy and magick all have literature which demonstrates some awareness of the kundalini process but these traditions are not, to this author's awareness, so open in their exposition of the techniques and so it is hard to judge the depth of understanding latent in these traditions. Nevertheless, the imagery is so unmistakable in these traditions that each must have, at least at one time, been conversant with the movement of kundalini.





So how do I awaken kundalini?


Indirectly kundalini can be awakened by devotion, by selfless service, or by intellectual enquiry. In these paths the blocks to the awakening of kundalini are slowly removed. Occasionally, individuals on these paths will experience a sudden awakening of kundalini but generally because the blocks are slowly and gently removed kundalini-like experiences evolve slowly in these paths.

Broadly speaking there are two radically different direct approaches to awakening kundalini. One approach requires initiation by a guru and relies upon a technique called shaktipat, or ``descent of shakti.'' It is variously called: Siddha Mahayoga, Kundalini Mahayoga or Sahaja Yoga (Spontaneous Yoga). These approaches are treated in the Siddha Mahayoga FAQ. The other approach uses intentional yogic techniques . The styles using intentional techniques include Mantra Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Laya Yoga or Kriya Yoga. These approaches are treated in the Kundalini Yogas FAQ .

Fundamentally the approach of Siddha Mahayoga and the Kundalini Yogas are different. In Siddha Mahayoga the guru awakens the kundalini and after that the core of the practice is the inactive and non-willful surrender to kundalini. In Kundalini Yogas the will is used to awaken the kundalini and to guide its progress. Clearly these are different approaches.
Nevertheless, elements of the each approach occur in the practices of the other. Siddha Mahayogins may use asanas, pranayamas and other hatha yoga practices. On the other hand gurus in Kundalini Yoga may give infusions of shakti to their students to help them at particular points in their practice.





What are the advantages and disadvantages of using effort, in kundalini yogas, as opposed to the grace of the guru, in siddha mahayoga, to awaken kundalini?


Since every practitioner brings his own unique inclinations and obstacles to the practice of yoga it is very hard to generalize on this point. In terms of actually awakening kundalini gurus of Siddha Mahayoga claim that the kundalini is more easily and reliably awakened by the grace of the guru than by individual effort. In my limited experience I would agree. with this assertion. While not every long-term student of either practice necessarily shows signs of kundalini awakening it is amazing how many people have had instant awakenings of kundalini through initiation from siddha gurus.

In terms of encountering difficulties along the path the siddha gurus would also claim that fewer problems due to kundalini awakening, such as mental imbalance, are encountered by students of Siddha Mahayoga. Here I think the results are mixed. It seems to me that the guidance of the teacher in either Siddha Mahayoga or Kundalini Yoga is more a determining factor than which style of kundalini practice is employed.

Generally speaking each style of practice has its strengths and weakness. The strength of Siddha Mahayoga is the ease with which it awakens the kundalini. The weakness is that because the kundalini is so easily awakened by the guru students of Siddha Mahayoga often have completely undisciplined personal meditation practices. Time is spent instead to trying to recreate some of their initial experiences by following the guru around hoping for his or her grace Some people spend 20 or more years in this manner without ever developing an inner core of practice or experience.

The strength of the family of Kundalini Yogas is that the progress is at least apparently more under the control of the student of the yoga. These students seem more likely to have disciplined personal practices and more of an understanding of how the practice relates to their own experience.
Unfortunately for some students this leads to a fairly egotistical approach to their practice and ultimately the kundalini energy is used to bolster the ego rather than to merge the ego in bliss.





What are the signs of an awakened kundalini?


Briefly, according to classical literature the signs of an awakened kundalini can be grouped into: mental signs, vocal signs and physical signs. Mental signs can include visions that range from ecstatically blissful to terrifyingly frightful. Vocal signs can include spontaneous vocal expressions that range from singing or reciting mantras to make various animals sounds such as growling or chirping. Physical signs include trembling, shaking and spontaneously performing hatha yoga postures and pranayamas.

From a more subjective perspective the more pleasant experiences associated with a kundalini awakening may include: waves of bliss, periods of elation, glimpses of transcendental consciousness. The less pleasant experiences associated with a kundalini awakening may include: trembling, sharp aches in areas associated with the cakras, periods of irrational anxiety, sudden flashes of heat.





Are these methods of awakening kundalini dangerous? What about Gopi Krishna's books?


If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini as the power latent in our unconscious then it is easy to understand that awakening this force is going to bring a greater amount of unconscious material into our consciousness. Even in the best of circumstances this is likely to be uncomfortable and if an individual is barely coping with his unconscious even under normal circumstances then awakening kundalini may push the individual over into psychosis. This phenomenon has been documented many times.

Forceful methods of awakening kundalini pose additional dangers. Because quite forceful methods can be used to awaken kundalini these techniques themselves are potentially physically and mentally disruptive. An individual named Gopi Krishna awakened his kundalini by doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented by physical and mental discomfort. Eventually his experience stabilized. He wrote down his experiences in a recently re-released autbiography entitled ``Living with Kundalini.'' Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an honest representation of his experiences but it is only one extreme datapoint in the panorama of experience on kundalini yoga. It represents dangers in forceful unguided practice but it is not representative of a typical practicioner's experience.





But even if kundalini is dangerous, isn't it a faster way to enlighenment?


First of all it may be useful to observe that there is no technique currently known on earth that appears to be rapidly catapulting large number of individuals toward enlightenment. Because kundalini yogas deal so directly with a powerful enlightening force it seems natural that they would be ``faster'', but there appears to be alot of tortoise and hare phenomena at work with newbie kundalini yogins. Many people begin kundalini yogas, have strong initial experiences and then become frightened. Many who perservere through this initial phase become distracted by the energy and focus on temporal and phenomenal applications of the energy.

There have been many scandals among kundalini yoga teachers - particularly sexual scandals. Is there a correlation between sexual scandals and kundalini yoga practice?

There have been scandals regarding the teachers of many paths, both spiritual and non-spiritual ; however, it is probably fair to say that kundalini yogins have had more than their share. Since the first publication of these frequently-asked-questions in 1994 more than one well-known kundalini yoga teacher has been implicated in having clandestine affairs with students and has been asked to step down from his position as spiritual leader as a result.

An advanced kundalini yogin is typically a powerful charismatic individual who has the ability to directly influence the minds of others. Westerners often mistake this power as a sign of enlightenment and allow such teachers liberties as a result.

In addition it is quite common for kundalini yoga to temporarily accentuate the sex drive. This period requires extra discipline. Finally, kundalini yoga is closely associated with tantrism and sex is often used in conjunction with tantric practice. Where sex is used there is of course the opportunity for misuse or abuse.





If my kundalini is awakened will I need to change my lifestyle?


It's hard to have your cake and eat it too. If you awaken kundalini in order to change and enrich your life it's reasonable to expect you may need to change your lifestyle as a result. The recommendations of both classical literature and experience is that sleep and diet will need to be moderated otherwise severe discomfort may arise. Furthermore without moderating sexual activity and physical work it will be hard to experience much success with kundalini. The extent that these elements of your life need to change depends on the nature of the individual. While genuine mental imbalances arising from kundalini are rare nearly every kundalini yogin will find periods when one needs to be especially sensitive to needs for sleep, quiet and diet
posted by:
Yogi madan
India
  • Re: KUNDALINI IS NOT A GOAL

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 9:43 AM
    Hi. With all respects, most people should never raise their kundalini. Enlightenment is a burden for people who don't know what to do with it. Enlightenment doesn't make you a better person or get you more love from God. If you live a life of service, enlightenment can give you insight on how to behave in the best way to heal or help someone. Kundalini for it's own sake should be rejected. Many people become ill and have even gotten cancer from raising their kundalini. It can give you powerful energy that becomes misdirected. I've heard of people that said it cause them to become a sex maniac which eventually caused them to become exhausted. My teacher's teacher met someone who raised their kundalini and had one of their arms shrivel up. It could not be healed by our techniques. Their is some idea that enlightenment is something other than a tool and that it accelerates your spiritual growth all by itself. That is preposterous. What good is a guru without people to love and serve? Paramhansa Yogananda advised, “Be ever busy for God. When you are not meditating, be active for Him. And when meditating, offer your mind up to Him in the same spirit of service, with keen, alert attention. Keep the mind ever busy with God, and with doing good for others.” Yogananda said that service is one of the fastest paths to God, but he also said that meditation is essential. Meditation is the best way to get out of focusing on the self and learn to focus on God. Without a mind that can focus on God and a heart that embraces service with gratitude, kundalini is a burden at best. Aloha, kahuna Lamaku.
    • Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

      Wed, April 16, 2008 - 10:37 AM
      One needs not to try and control the kundalini,
      it flows through most of us.
      And this very much has to do with shamanism.
      It's just from two different parts of the world.
      Two different explanations
      coming together.
      Just let it flow, breathe deep.
      When you learn about kundalini,
      you will see how it has governed your consciousness since day 1.
      that's just what I've found . .
      • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

        Wed, April 16, 2008 - 11:52 AM
        >>>And this very much has to do with shamanism. <<<

        I don't doubt that it does.

        My question was really directed at Yogi madan g, who posted the lengthy -- and apparently canned -- discourse on kundalini with absolutely no attempt to relate it to the subject matter of this tribe. I am willing to bet that we never hear from this guy again. I am willing to bet that he has no interest in actually participating in a discussion on the relationship between kundalini yoga and shamanism.

        I hope I am wrong. I would be delighted to see Yogi madan g participate actively in such a discussion. But, alas, I suspect that we have been the recipient of religiously motivated spam.

        -- Stevce
        singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/

        • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

          Wed, April 16, 2008 - 12:17 PM
          Hi Steve,

          >>My question was really directed at Yogi madan g, who posted the lengthy --
          >>and apparently canned -- discourse on kundalini with absolutely no attempt
          >>to relate it to the subject matter of this tribe.

          It is worse than a canned and off-topic (or at best only tangentially on-topic) post, it was cross-posted to more than a dozen tribes and appears to be a case of deliberate plagiarism.

          His motivation –appears- (to me at least) to drum up some admiration of his “knowledge” and abilities as a “GURU”
        • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

          Wed, April 16, 2008 - 12:18 PM
          Hi Steve. I'm with you on this. I'm sure some shamans have had their kundalini rise up and had to live with it. It may have served them and it may have screwed them up, at least temporarily. Technically, it has nothing to do with Shamanism. If it did we would have heard about it. There is no monopoly on it. I say beware people who say they can give you enlightenment. This is in the same general catagory of making someone a shaman. What a crock of bullcrap. All my teacher's apprectices abandoned him when the spirit world became to real for them. Deities manifesting in the real world drive most people insane. Therefore, most people should never become shamans especially if there is a lack of emotional support for them. If kundalini has played a role in the background, talking about it is as much of a waste of time as talking about any other part of our anatomy. Peace out, kahuna Lamaku.
          • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

            Wed, April 16, 2008 - 12:46 PM
            Hi Lamaku

            >>Technically, it has nothing to do with Shamanism.
            >>If it did we would have heard about it.

            Well, some of us -have- heard about it... ;-)

            Look into the Kung (or !Kung) tribe of the Kalahari Bushmen. The have a highly developed system for arousing the kundalini (called “n/um” or “num” by the Kung), getting it to travel uninhibitedly up the spine and to the crown of the head. This causes an ecstatic state (called kai) which is used by the Kung shamans to engage in a variety of shamanic activities such as healing.

            See for example:
            _Boiling Energy: Community Healing Among the Kalahari Kung_ by Richard Katz
            _N/um Tachi: The Ceremonial Dance of the !Kung Bushmen; A Study Guide_ by John Marshall

            Warm Wishes
            Ryan
            • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

              Wed, April 16, 2008 - 2:18 PM
              Hi Ryan. This is very interesting but, does not sound like kundalini. When I do healing it can result in an ecstatic state. It is not permanent. Kundalini is permanent. It is also often debilitating in one way or another. Kundalini is not a cooperating force. It is a dominating one. The problem here is that the book is written by an outsider to the culture who has to correlate the information between the two languages. There may not be a good correlation. However, the book sounds like a good read. Aloha, kahuna Lamaku.
              • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

                Wed, April 16, 2008 - 3:23 PM
                Hi Lamaku,

                >> It is not permanent. Kundalini is permanent.

                The vast -vast- majority of Sanskrit literature treats kundalini/candali a “force” which is active transiently (and/or is activated transiently).

                The idea that once kundalini reaches the crown one becomes fully and permanently enlightened is largely a modern idea with little support in the classical Hindu (usually Saiva) or Buddhist literature.

                In the classical Buddhist system of kundalini yoga (called candalini-yoga or candali-yoga) one does not achieve enlightenment when the energy reaches the crown. Rather, the literature asserts that it causes a series of ecstatic states to ensue. This ecstasy (ananda) can result in a wide variety of phenomena including visionary states. In this yoga, as presented in the Indo-Tibetan source materials, the kundalini/ecstasy can and should be a voluntary process and is not permanent. Enlightenment is the result of additional yogic/spiritual work and is not strictly caused by kundalini/candalini (although kundalini work is usually seen as a prerequisite)

                Anyone familiar with the Sanskrit literature (or even just the available translations) and the anthropological literature on the Kung will be able to see that these phenomena do not conflict with each other and are described in –remarkably- similar ways.

                To me (as a practitioner of candalini-yoga) it is abundantly clear that "num" is the same energy as kundalini/kundali and candalini /candali

                >>The problem here is that the book is written by an outsider
                >>to the culture who has to correlate the information between the two languages.

                You are quite simply incorrect.

                Neither Richard Katz nor John Marshall make any attempt to correlate Kung techniques with kundalini practices. They are both essentially anthropological treatments of Kung practices from -within- the Kung cultural framework. Moreover, (if memory serves) Katz can hardly be called an outsider, because he was initiated into these Kung practices and received the traditional training given by Kung shamans. That’s not an outsider in my book.

                Warm Regard,
                Ryan
                • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

                  Wed, April 16, 2008 - 3:45 PM
                  Hi Ryan. Each practice may result in different things happening. Every source I've read including one of Grandmaster Glenn Morris stated that kundalini was permanent. Here is a link for you and I will post two partial paragraphs; www.wholisticarts.org/morris.html I still believe that without a heart of service kundalini is a just a distraction. Aloha, kahuna Lamaku.

                  "Later on I further experienced visual and auditory hallucinations as well as super human strength (breaking door handles from turning them too hard) , reversal of life long arthritis, occasional bouts of telepathy and other forms of unexplainable knowing. These experiences worked up to a peak one early morning when I saw a golden brown colored viper begin to slowly uncurl from my sacrum. As if it had a mind of its own, the serpent shot its way up through my spinal column in what felt like an eruption of FIRE. It culminated with a tremendous explosion of energy in my head and I was then thoroughly 'fried'. For the next few months, when I closed my eyes there was a constant barrage of lights.
                  I later discovered that this was a Permanent Kundalini Awakening, and that is why it never went away even when I didn't practice for weeks. That energy had been released and there was no going back. I was forced to learn to live in harmony with it. After my body had fully rejuvenated and adapted to the increased voltage, I began to wonder why the 'Kundalini' experience was shrouded in myth and why I could not find a single person who had been through it themselves."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

                    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 4:47 PM
                    Hi Lamaku

                    Glenn Morris is well known in the martial-arts community as a true master... of telling whoppers and tall-tales.

                    He is most definitely not a source I can take even remotely seriously. He has conflated the Xiao Jiu Tien, a well-known and pretty basic qi-gong practice, with kundalini-yoga. Because he managed to complete the Xiao Jiu Tien he believes he has also completed kundalini practice and has therefore achieved full enlightenment (I’m not kidding, he actually says so in _Path Notes of an American Ninja Master_ and yes, that’s really the title)

                    This guy is wrong on so many levels, and is so many ways, I don't even want to try list them.

                    As I have already said, there are all kinds of modern notions which have either very little support or actually conflict with the classical Indian and Tibetan literature on the subject. If you want to find a reasonably accurate presentation of these yoga systems, you need to consult the original Indo-Tibetan source materials. The vast majority of modern writings on Kundalini are seriously flawed.

                    If you want to cite sources, please make it the reliable Sanskrit literature (much of which is available in English). Some examples of sources I take seriously are:

                    Vijnanabhairava-Tantra, Tantraraja-Tantra, Hathayogapradipika, Kaulajnana Nirnaya, Abhinavagupta’s Tantraloka, Hevajra-Tantra, Yogaratnamala, Samputa-Tantra Samvarodaya-Tantra, Mantrasastra Lalita Sahasranaman, Kalachakra-Tantra Pundarika's Vimalaprabha, Vajragarbha's Dasasahasrika-Hevajra-tika, Jnaneshvar, Lalleshwari, Vajramala-Tantra and any of the translations of Sanskrit and Tibetan materials on the sad-nadapadadharma (Six Yogas of Naropa).

                    Warm Wishes,
                    Ryan
                    • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

                      Thu, April 17, 2008 - 5:22 AM
                      ryan, aren't these practices meant for advanced tantric practitioners? what would be the benefit of investigating them without the preliminary tantric practices? or the blessings, teachings, empowerments of a tantric master (like a tibetan lama for example)?
                      • Re: Kundalini is a slow cloud, lightning.

                        Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:50 AM
                        Correct, they are intended for qualified students.

                        They are available for academics, but will be
                        in limited value to non-initiates. In many cases
                        the lanuage is expresed like lecture notes in that
                        the details are left for someone who knows them
                        to fill in.

                        The point Ryan is making is that modern theories
                        bear little resemblence to what comes from authentic
                        sources and when completed by oral instruction from
                        lineage-holders who are themselves accomplished
                        in the practices the text refers to.
                        • Re: Enlightenment does not make you a good person

                          Thu, April 17, 2008 - 10:09 AM
                          Hi all. I hope the real information is hard to find because I am unconvinced it is good for most people. It is even hard for a enlightened master to spot a sociopath because a true sociopath is congruent within themselves and believe themselves to be a good person. An enlightened sociopath would still be a sociopath. My kahuna Lani had a spiritual battle with an enlightened master who's name you would know. He is a pervert. He likes to have sex with the children of his disciples. Though, at this point he is probably a bit old for that. One family left his compound and ran. How they found us I don't know. My kahuna agreed to protect them. The batte was short. The holy enlightened guru pervert started to manifest himself in the room with my teacher. The Aumakua's of the Heiau (angels) surrounded him. He said "I am God" to Lani who responded "no, you are a fool". Righteousness and spiritual power were with Lani and the guru vanished. The people who were stalking the family suddenly left and never came back. Most people are not responsible or righteous enough to be enlightened so, the fact that it is shrouded in mystery is a good thing. Enlightenment is a tool for service. If a person is without a mind that can focus on God and does not possess a heart that needs to serve others, enlightenment is a bad idea whether it is obtainable permanently or temporarily as a technique. By the way, Dr. Glenn Morris died a few years back. Aloha, kahuna Lamaku.
                          • Re: Enlightenment does not make you a good person

                            Thu, April 17, 2008 - 12:00 PM
                            Hi Everyone,

                            Embrace wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                            ryan, aren't these practices meant for advanced tantric practitioners? what would be the benefit of investigating them without the preliminary tantric practices? or the blessings, teachings, empowerments of a tantric master (like a tibetan lama for example)?
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            The texts I mentioned are from a variety of traditions such as the Natha sampradaya, Indian (and Newar) Vajrayana, Tibetan systems, Kaula and other schools of Kashmir Saivism etc. These all trace back to a set of interconnected siddha lineages (siddha Sampradaya). Each of these traditions has a different perspective and somewhat different practices. Each also has different ideas about what the proper prerequisites are for practice. All will require an initiation and formal relationship between guru and student. Many will require much preliminary training (I was studying/practicing Tibetan Buddhism for almost twenty years before being introduced to such practices). In some Natha traditions techniques similar to the nadi-vayu-yantra and candali-yoga might very well be taught in one’s first year of study… But yes, generally one needs the sort of preparation you referred to in order to -make practical use- of the information in the texts

                            Mark wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                            The point Ryan is making is that modern theories bear little resemblence to what comes from authentic sources and when completed by oral instruction from lineage-holders who are themselves accomplished in the practices the text refers to. reply to this post
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            Exactly so. There are many modern notions that seem quite different from anything in the classical texts. In this thread, the important (discordant) modern belief is that when the kundali/candai (do to the dissolution of the prana and apana) rises up through the central channel and finally reaches the crown, one achieves full and permanent enlightenment. This belief is not supported by any of the textual and practice traditions that I am familiar with. The reason I refer again and again to textual traditions is because these traditions are regarded as authoritative (within their lineages). Also it is considered inappropriate to discussed personal experiences and in the West citing the experience of ones teachers (or others in the lineage) is seen to border on cultish behavior. Thus, texts are the easiest thing to cite.

                            Lamaku wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                            I hope the real information is hard to find because I am unconvinced it is good for most people.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            It varies from text to text, numerous different translations of Hathayogapradipika (for example) are available to anyone with a library card. Other texts continue to be carefully restricted. I agree that that it is probably not good for most people (especially without the ready guidance and support of a qualified teacher). If a person does go to the library and tries to apply the methods in say the Hathayogapradipika, they are likely to mess themselves up in a very bad way.

                            Lamaku wrote:
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                            An enlightened sociopath would still be a sociopath… Most people are not responsible or righteous enough to be enlightened so, the fact that it is shrouded in mystery is a good thing. Enlightenment is a tool for service. If a person is without a mind that can focus on God and does not possess a heart that needs to serve others, enlightenment is a bad idea whether it is obtainable permanently or temporarily as a technique.
                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            We appear to have very different views of what enlightenment is. I’m sorry to hear that Glenn Morris has passed away.

                            I have ranted and rambled more than enough about this topic. I will now leave it to others to discuss…

                            Warm Regards,
                            Ryan
                            • Hopefully this will be my last post on this subject. I only post it in case a neophyte comes along. Enlightenment is not exclusive to any society. Different enlightened masters teach different beliefs and put emphasis on different things. Of course, there are similarities as well. The fact that are any differences at means that enlightenment does not have any effect on a person's mind or spirit. It has physical and emotional effects. It seems to allow clear sight into things, energetic advantages, etc. If it did have an effect on the person's mind and could change their opinions it would violate their free will and therefore be destructive. Black magic seeks to violate free will. I think the belief that it can make changes that it cannot stems from the teaching that it bestows freedom from karma and the cycle of rebirth. That particular teaching is a crock of horseshit. It is probably used by teachers to get people to come to them as students and disciples. Many people living in the countries where these teachings originate live in horrible conditions and do not want to be reborn if they can help it. According to one of my kahuna's mentors, Rev. Fred Kimball, the people that hold these beliefs don't stay on the other side very long. As soon as they can, they reincarnate wherever they can with complete disregard for family lineages. That, of course, is a generalization. So, if you are a seeker of enlightenment for no other purpose than to be enlightened, you are at risk for living a meaningless life and will be reborn so you can do it right. Aloha, kahuna Lamaku.
    • Re: KUNDALINI IS NOT A GOAL

      Wed, April 16, 2008 - 11:09 AM
      "If you live a life of service, enlightenment can give you insight on how to behave in the best way to heal or help someone."

      very sound. what i see in this world is a need for concern for others, and the service with gratitude you mention, lamaku. the bells and whistles are not the point. so what if you can tie yourself in a pretzel and raise your kundalini as you levitate toward the heavens if you haven't learned what it is to be a decent, less self serving human being that lives in service and gratitude? seems the stunts are no feat by comparison and hardly a benefit.

      let us raise our compassion, love, and forgiveness and see where that gets us.

      thank you.

      blessings for all in our journey.
  • Deliberate plagiarism?

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 12:06 PM

    This article was written and is copyrighted by my friend Kurt Keutzer. What is truly sad is that Kurt has given permission to freely distribute the file *provided* that credit is given to him as author and that it is posted unchanged. www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutze...faq.html

    By deliberately editing out Kurt's name, you seem to be trying to get people to believe that you are the author. I believe this is connected to your claim to be an expert on yoga and kundalini (or, as you profile claims, a "Lineage GURU")...

    But, if you need to plagiarize to seem knowledgeable, how competent of a "GURU" can you really be?

    The real information about this faq is:
    ______________________________________________
    Kundalini FAQ
    KUNDALINI: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS AND SELECTED REFERENCES
    Version 2.01, June 2002
    Copyright Kurt Keutzer, 2002 (keutzer@eecs.berkeley.edu)
    The author grants the right to copy and distribute this file, provided it remains unmodified and original authorship and copyright is retained. Adding tasteful artwork is encouraged. Please do not change the title (in html) of this document. The author retains both the right and intention to modify and extend this document.
    This FAQ gives a background on the phenomenon of kundalini and is assumed material before reading the other related articles:
    Siddha Mahayoga FAQ
    Kundalini Yogas FAQ
    The Siddha Mahayoga Tradition of Swami Shivom Tirth

    www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutze...faq.html
    • Re: Deliberate plagiarism?

      Mon, April 21, 2008 - 2:25 AM
      My dear Rayan
      i do agree that this is orignal work of Mr. Kurt Keutzer and i have simply posted it.i am not claimimg its authorship.i have taken them in my blogs with full details.
      i am here for awarness regarding kundalini and siddhas lineage and not for any business.
      rest for all other discussions i will reply later on with my point of view.
      Om
      • Re: Deliberate plagiarism?

        Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:13 AM
        Could you please clarify why you removed Kurt's name, his copyright information, and his distribution conditions from the top of the article?

        Could you also explain why you violated Kurt's conditions of distribution by changing the title?

        Thank you,
        Ryan
  • Re: KUNDALINI------A REALITY

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 10:03 AM
    I do not know how many here consider the ancient Maya priests to be shamans but according to Hunbatz Men the Mayans are the originators of the concept and the word itself of kundalini and they taught it to the East Indian. In fact kundalini is a contraction of the Mayan words Kun Dal and Lini. It is all documented in Hunbatz's book The Secrets of Mayan Wisdom. I do not have the book with me but it means something like from the tail bone to the nose.

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